Exactly how much authority does ATC have?

caliginousface

Frank N. Beans
So while flying with approach a few days ago, and recalling a day when I busted class D while on with center, how much authority does ATC have to maneuver me in and out of airspace?

Is there a certain number of miles from final they have to make the switch to tower, or could they vector an aircraft to .5 miles out and then have them switch? Do they let the tower know they have a cessna that will be 1500ft transitioning the airspace?
 
So while flying with approach a few days ago, and recalling a day when I busted class D while on with center, how much authority does ATC have to maneuver me in and out of airspace?

Is there a certain number of miles from final they have to make the switch to tower, or could they vector an aircraft to .5 miles out and then have them switch? Do they let the tower know they have a cessna that will be 1500ft transitioning the airspace?

Centers/Tracons have a letter of agreement with towers about where the switchover occurs. It's their responsibility (according to the 7110.65) to coordinate your interaction with other airspaces.

This is a bit at odds with the Part 91 requirement that you establish radio communications with the tower in question.
 
This is a bit at odds with the Part 91 requirement that you establish radio communications with the tower in question.

Then the question begs...how does a pilot know this? Only way I would think to be there is by asking controllers (whether on the ground or by radio). Yes/No?
 
So while flying with approach a few days ago, and recalling a day when I busted class D while on with center, how much authority does ATC have to maneuver me in and out of airspace?

Is there a certain number of miles from final they have to make the switch to tower, or could they vector an aircraft to .5 miles out and then have them switch? Do they let the tower know they have a cessna that will be 1500ft transitioning the airspace?

If you're under atc, it is the controllers job to coordinate with the adjacent airspace if you will enter their airspace. If the approach controller forgot to switch you to the tower, it's the controller's mistake, not yours. Usually the TOC (transfer of control) point is close to 5 miles or the outer marker. If I understand you correctly, you didn't bust the class D, the controller just forgot to switch you to tower freq.

HD
 
So while flying with approach a few days ago, and recalling a day when I busted class D while on with center, how much authority does ATC have to maneuver me in and out of airspace?

Is there a certain number of miles from final they have to make the switch to tower, or could they vector an aircraft to .5 miles out and then have them switch? Do they let the tower know they have a cessna that will be 1500ft transitioning the airspace?
you're cleared to enter delta so long as you establish and maintain communication with ATC unless ATC tells you not to enter delta or remain outside so and so's delta airspace,for good reason of course.
Best thing to do is establish communication with approach/en route control plenty far out(20+ miles) and they'll transfer you to the tower 10+ miles out. Any good controller will give you room to turn a 90 degree+ to avoid delta. If they let you get within a half mile until telling you to "remain outside delta" that's sign of a piss poor controller and you have all right to defend yourself. It's good practice to request permission into each delta. If unsure, request vectors to remain outside delta.
If you enter delta without ATC permission/comm. it's a pilot deviation.
Stay out of military delta(or any military airspace for that matter), keep in contact with ATC and keep on truckin!

VFR or IFR, We Guide You Home Safely.
 
This actually brings up a good point that I've been trying to figure out for a few weeks. I'll use KRDR-KGFK, KRCA-KRAP, and KFOE-KTOP as examples since those are the ones I'm familiar with. In each case, there is a military installation with class D that "bumps" into the Class D of the adjacent civilian airport. If you are west of RDR, north of RCA, or southwest of FOE, and get cleared for a visual into the adjoining airport, can you descend through the bases' airspace in order to descend to land at the civilian airport?

According to part 91, I would think the answer is no, unless you contacted the bases' tower or was specifically told "cleared through _____ airspace" from approach/center. Correct?
 
you're cleared to enter delta so long as you establish and maintain communication with ATC unless ATC tells you not to enter delta or remain outside so and so's delta airspace,for good reason of course.
Best thing to do is establish communication with approach/en route control plenty far out(20+ miles) and they'll transfer you to the tower 10+ miles out. Any good controller will give you room to turn a 90 degree+ to avoid delta. If they let you get within a half mile until telling you to "remain outside delta" that's sign of a piss poor controller and you have all right to defend yourself. It's good practice to request permission into each delta. Actually, you don't need "permission" to enter class D, so why ask? If you establish two way comms, thats good enough, right?. Nothing bugs me more than a pilot pestering me asking me if he has permission to enter our class C airspace...this ain't Bravo. If unsure, request vectors to remain outside delta.
If you enter delta without ATC permission/comm. it's a pilot deviation. Not if you're talking to approach and they assign you a heading or are already aware of your route of flight. I.E. N345 SW of ABC tower, NE bound talking to approach VFR. If the approach controller believes N345 will touch ABC towers airspace, it is the approach controllers responsibility to point the aircraft out to the ABC tower or hand N345 off to the tower. The pilot has no idea whats being coordinated on the landlines...
Stay out of military delta(or any military airspace for that matter)Why?:confused:, keep in contact with ATC and keep on truckin!

VFR or IFR, We Guide You Home Safely.
 
Then the question begs...how does a pilot know this? Only way I would think to be there is by asking controllers (whether on the ground or by radio). Yes/No?

I don't think ATC really wants the pilot fretting about this; as far as they're concerned, it's their responsibility. That said, the moving map GPS' make boundary determination easy.

BTW, I'm attaching a LOI that touches on the issue a bit. In the letter, it's a Center vs Class C, but it does show a bit of the thinking of the FAA. It mostly applies to VFR flight following with the aircraft not getting radar vectors, although their reasoning doesn't specifically say that's the crucial factor:

Mike Granby
605 Holly Court
York, Pennsylvania 17406
Dear Mr. Granby:

In a letter dated February 10, 2006, you asked us about the meaning and application of Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) section 91.130(c)(1) which addresses arrival or through flight in Class C airspace. 14 CFR § 91.130(c)(1) states in relevant part:

Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements: Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the [emphasis supplied] ATC (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

In your letter, you inquired whether use of the definite article “the”, which is italicized above, indicates a requirement to contact the air traffic control (ATC) facility charged with managing the specific Class C airspace or whether contact with any ATC facility would suffice. The answer is that the regulation requires that the operator contact the specific ATC facility responsible for the Class C airspace in question. In the case of Class C airspace, that facility is the Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON).

Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.

The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.

Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR. However, the FAA does recognize that there could be circumstances that mitigate the violation depending on the actual contents of the two-way communication between the pilot and the Center.

If you have any further questions please contact Mr. Naveen Rao of my staff at (202) 267-3073. Thank you for your inquiry.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations
 
I don't think ATC really wants the pilot fretting about this; as far as they're concerned, it's their responsibility. That said, the moving map GPS' make boundary determination easy.

BTW, I'm attaching a LOI that touches on the issue a bit. In the letter, it's a Center vs Class C, but it does show a bit of the thinking of the FAA What an understatement!. It mostly applies to VFR flight following with the aircraft not getting radar vectors, although their reasoning doesn't specifically say that's the crucial factor:

So this letter basically says I can provide flight following in other peoples airspace, never have to hand him off or point him out, and then blame the pilot when he busts somebody else's airpsace...nice:D...gotta love the FAA:banghead:
 
This actually brings up a good point that I've been trying to figure out for a few weeks. I'll use KRDR-KGFK, KRCA-KRAP, and KFOE-KTOP as examples since those are the ones I'm familiar with. In each case, there is a military installation with class D that "bumps" into the Class D of the adjacent civilian airport. If you are west of RDR, north of RCA, or southwest of FOE, and get cleared for a visual into the adjoining airport, can you descend through the bases' airspace in order to descend to land at the civilian airport?

According to part 91, I would think the answer is no, unless you contacted the bases' tower or was specifically told "cleared through _____ airspace" from approach/center. Correct?

Any good controller, thinking ahead, thinking, if I clear him for the visual where he's at now, he may dip into XYZ's airspace, will have pointed you out to the other tower and been legal. How the FAR is interpreted, I have no idea.

HD
 
never have to hand him off or point him out, and then blame the pilot when he busts somebody else's airpsace

That's how I read it. It's probably a CYA thing for them, because the regulations don't make a provision for the scenario of one facility having some control over the airspace of another, and it's not to their benefit to voluntarily give up the right to blame a pilot should a conflict occur.

I've been tempted to write them back and confront them with the 7110.65 language specifying that it's not the pilot's responsibility when receiving flight following services. But that's on a long list of things to write them about. ;)
 
This actually brings up a good point that I've been trying to figure out for a few weeks. I'll use KRDR-KGFK, KRCA-KRAP, and KFOE-KTOP as examples since those are the ones I'm familiar with. In each case, there is a military installation with class D that "bumps" into the Class D of the adjacent civilian airport. If you are west of RDR, north of RCA, or southwest of FOE, and get cleared for a visual into the adjoining airport, can you descend through the bases' airspace in order to descend to land at the civilian airport?

According to part 91, I would think the answer is no, unless you contacted the bases' tower or was specifically told "cleared through _____ airspace" from approach/center. Correct?

We have the same thing here in Tucson with TUS and DMA. Jets landing on TUS RW 21 will usually fly a tight base to 21, but may fly a straight-in, crossing DMAs RW 12/30. Approach simply coordinates with DMA tower to allow that, and its traffic dependant.
 
Stay out of military delta(or any military airspace for that matter)Why?:confused:,Same reason i'd tell a VFR aircraft at 075 flying towards a hot RA that it is hot below 080. I'm not a fan of avoidable QAR'skeep in contact with ATC and keep on truckin!
 
I'm just a newbie here, but it seems that the message in the letter was quite clear. ATC in all its forms (ARTCC, TRACON, tower) do their best to talk to everyone when they should and even give them correct instructions, but ultimately the VFR pilot is responsible for knowing where he or she currently is and where they're going.

If you are given a heading/altitude that will cause you to fly through what you know is Class D airspace, simply dial up that Class D's frequency on radio #2, press BOTH, and give them a heads up. If Center already called them, what's the harm? Taking 5 seconds of tower/approach's time to announce my presence and hear a reply buys me the peace of mind that tower/approach knows I'm here and will (hopefully) keep other traffic away from me.

As for adjoining Class C or D airspace, I don't know. I've been in left traffic for 11L at TUS (between TUS and DMA) and heard tower telling the guy ahead of me to tuck it in on downwind to avoid getting too close to DM. I'm not sure at what point are you required to call one or the other.

I'd bet a dollar MikeD will weigh in as TUS/DMA is is homedrome.
 
I'm hearing quite a few answers that suggest when transiting class D airspace you should expect to be switched to the tower while you transition. I wouldn't count on that. I could only see that being done if you were traffic pattern altitude, which is probably going to be below the MVA so it is unlikely you'd be at that altitude. Even if you're VFR I don't know many pilots who cruise at 1,000 AGL. I'd expect that the controller can competent enough to handle their traffic and execute a point out. If I was unsure, I'd ask, but contacting the class D tower on another radio and giving them a heads up would probably create confusion and lead to some exchanges on the land line as to just which airport you're landing at.

I'm also confused as to why you would never run traffic through a military class D. It isn't like civilian pilots can't be there. If you point your traffic out how is that any different than an FAA or FCT delta? The only difference I can think of is spiral departures / arrivals, but those are VFR manuvers that the overlying radar controller would have to approve anyway. I don't see an overhead approach being a confllict with an overflight either.
 
I'm hearing quite a few answers that suggest when transiting class D airspace you should expect to be switched to the tower while you transition.

I haven't seen any answers that suggested that. However, the FAA letter I posted hinted that the letter of the law would require exactly that.
 
I'm also confused as to why you would never run traffic through a military class D. It isn't like civilian pilots can't be there. If you point your traffic out how is that any different than an FAA or FCT delta? The only difference I can think of is spiral departures / arrivals, but those are VFR manuvers that the overlying radar controller would have to approve anyway. I don't see an overhead approach being a confllict with an overflight either.

Going through military Class D is no different than any other Class D; if they're not busy when you call them (or when TRACON attempts to coordinate with them), then they'll approve you through...same as anywhere else.
 
I'm just a newbie here, but it seems that the message in the letter was quite clear. ATC in all its forms (ARTCC, TRACON, tower) do their best to talk to everyone when they should and even give them correct instructions, but ultimately the VFR pilot is responsible for knowing where he or she currently is and where they're going.

If you are given a heading/altitude that will cause you to fly through what you know is Class D airspace, simply dial up that Class D's frequency on radio #2, press BOTH, and give them a heads up. If Center already called them, what's the harm? Taking 5 seconds of tower/approach's time to announce my presence and hear a reply buys me the peace of mind that tower/approach knows I'm here and will (hopefully) keep other traffic away from me.

As for adjoining Class C or D airspace, I don't know. I've been in left traffic for 11L at TUS (between TUS and DMA) and heard tower telling the guy ahead of me to tuck it in on downwind to avoid getting too close to DM. I'm not sure at what point are you required to call one or the other.

I'd bet a dollar MikeD will weigh in as TUS/DMA is is homedrome.

If IFR, expect to be handed off to tower by ARTCC or TRACON, and to be kept clear of other Class Ds or know that you've been coordinated for passing near/through them if you might be going to; if VFR, it's your responsibility to remain clear and /or coordinate. In either case, if it doesn look right when IFR, query ATC to if youre cleared; if VFR, either avoid or give them a call.

Case in point again with TUS. If landing on RW 21 at night as an IFR arrival, you're going to go right through DMAFB Class D on your final approach; but TUS TRACON will just hand you over to TUS tower, since the penetration of DMAs Class D has been pre-coordinated via landline. If VFR and east of DMAFB and intending to land at TUS (and assuming below Class C), and you make a direct call to TUS tower for landing instructions; you'll be told to contact DM tower first for transition, to where DM tower will hand you off to TUS tower prior to reaching TUS's pattern.
 
I haven't seen any answers that suggested that. However, the FAA letter I posted hinted that the letter of the law would require exactly that.

What I'm getting at is the OP posted a two part question, a what if on landing and a what if as an overflight. The part about TCP for landing in a D has been covered, but nobody mentioned the second part about being an overflight.

I know some limited radar towers can provide seperation between overflights and departures / arrivals, which would make flight following possible through the class D from the RACD / DBRITE or what have you, but most class D towers I know of don't allow for overflights, or don't even have limited radar certification. Asking a controller who may not be certified (let alone one who might not have the nesessary equipment) as a radar controller to provide radar traffic advisories can't be legal.

Part 91 and the .65 are at odds here, but what if I fail to make the point out and when the pilot asks, I tell them tower knows about them? According to the .65 its my fault, but per part 91 its the PICs. Legality aside I think the blame should rest squarely on me. Along the same lines what about a PAR/ASR. If I don't recieve a clearance from tower, but accidentally clear the a/c to land I think its silly that one set of regs could call that a deviation when they are specifically instructed to not contact tower until rollout. The PIC would have no way of verifying clearance.
 
I know some limited radar towers can provide seperation between overflights and departures / arrivals, which would make flight following possible through the class D from the RACD / DBRITE or what have you, but most class D towers I know of don't allow for overflights, or don't even have limited radar certification. Asking a controller who may not be certified (let alone one who might not have the nesessary equipment) as a radar controller to provide radar traffic advisories can't be legal.

As you mention, many Class D towers with a BRITE scope use them merely for sequencing and not necesarily for any kind of vectoring or separation, or other radar controller functions. Knowing that, I believe pilots could then know what kind of service they could expect from the tower, as well as what's reasonable to request.

Part 91 and the .65 are at odds here, but what if I fail to make the point out and when the pilot asks, I tell them tower knows about them? According to the .65 its my fault, but per part 91 its the PICs. Legality aside I think the blame should rest squarely on me. Along the same lines what about a PAR/ASR. If I don't recieve a clearance from tower, but accidentally clear the a/c to land I think its silly that one set of regs could call that a deviation when they are specifically instructed to not contact tower until rollout. The PIC would have no way of verifying clearance.

Fully agree, though I've never yet seen that happen with an ASR/PAR (not saying it couldn't). To me, that dev would be with ATC, since in those approaches the pilot is relying on ATC for that landing clearance to be coordinated...much like a pilot reasonably expecting, when on an IFR clnc, to be handed off to (and pre-coordinated with) tower from the TRACON environment....or ARTCC envrionment.

I believe the same applies for SFA Letters of Agreement, at fields that have them.
 
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