Exactly how much authority does ATC have?

[tgrayson]

Part 91 and the .65 are at odds here,

Yes, but realistically, how many pilots are aware of their technical responsibilities to the degree that they'll give ATC a hard time about not switching them over to the appropriate tower? I bet very few. Most pilots are content to be vectored around by ATC, without worrying too much about where they are (for better or worse.)

And let's assume a technical violation of 91.129(c): how is the FAA likely to become aware of the technical violation unless one of the controllers tells them? Doesn't seem likely the controller wants to bring his own mistake to the attention of anybody.

 

[papag]

If you are given a heading/altitude that will cause you to fly through what you know is Class D airspace, simply dial up that Class D's frequency on radio #2, press BOTH, and give them a heads up. If Center already called them, what's the harm? Taking 5 seconds of tower/approach's time to announce my presence and hear a reply buys me the peace of mind that tower/approach knows I'm here and will (hopefully) keep other traffic away from me.

No do not do this on your own. Often the transition is coordinated ahead of time. You add to the confusion when taking matters into your cockpit. Just ask who you are talking to at present if you have clearance thru the class D.

If you switch on your own, tower will be on the line to approach saying "why am I talking to this guy?" Approach may be looking for you on freq. etc. Causes way to much distraction for both. You stay out of the ATC business and Ill stay out of the cockpit.......We do make mistakes but its always best to inquire with the controller on freq. before switching.

 

[The Fez]

No do not do this on your own. Often the transition is coordinated ahead of time. You add to the confusion when taking matters into your cockpit. Just ask who you are talking to at present if you have clearance thru the class D. If you switch on your own, tower will be on the line to approach saying "why am I talking to this guy?" Approach may be looking for you on freq. etc. Causes way to much distraction for both. You stay out of the ATC business and Ill stay out of the cockpit.......We do make mistakes but its always best to inquire with the controller on freq. before switching.

Thanks for the info. Why turn radio knobs when you don't have to? May as well just ask the controller you're already talking to.

 

[caliginousface]

you're cleared to enter delta so long as you establish and maintain communication with ATC unless ATC tells you not to enter delta or remain outside so and so's delta airspace,for good reason of course.
Best thing to do is establish communication with approach/en route control plenty far out(20+ miles) and they'll transfer you to the tower 10+ miles out. Any good controller will give you room to turn a 90 degree+ to avoid delta. If they let you get within a half mile until telling you to "remain outside delta" that's sign of a piss poor controller and you have all right to defend yourself.

What had happened was I was on with ABQ Center while doing VFR practice approaches at KPRC. What was explained to me was that it was a pilot deviation because by the time I had switched over to PRC tower, I was already committed to the airspace. Since they didn't have a radar feed, and since it was VFR practice approach own navigation, I was at fault.

My only explanation was just being unfamiliar, whether it was lapse in my training or just stupidity. While under terminal control, they vector us through all kinds of airspace while doing VFR practice approaches, the difference being with center, it was own navigation.

 

[MikeD]

What had happened was I was on with ABQ Center while doing VFR practice approaches at KPRC. What was explained to me was that it was a pilot deviation because by the time I had switched over to PRC tower, I was already committed to the airspace. Since they didn't have a radar feed, and since it was VFR practice approach own navigation, I was at fault.

My only explanation was just being unfamiliar, whether it was lapse in my training or just stupidity. While under terminal control, they vector us through all kinds of airspace while doing VFR practice approaches, the difference being with center, it was own navigation.

Having flown at PRC many a time doing the same thing, am curious why you were with center at all? Esp with doing VFR practice approaches. Just curious as to the reasoning.

Remember, when VFR, it's the pilot's responsibility to know where he is and avoid airspace he shouldn't be entering, or query ATC to cancel and change freqs if he knows he's going to. With VFR flight following, that's how it is. Even if center forgets about you, and you bust an airspace, it's your fault. Fly into terrain? Your fault. Hence in an area like PRC, it's more of a pain in the butt to use it, than not to and just work on tower freq the whole time with the standard "VFR practice approaches approved, IFR separation not provided" caveat from them. Less that can be missed or go wrong.

 

[caliginousface]

Having flown at PRC many a time doing the same thing, am curious why you were with center at all? Esp with doing VFR practice approaches. Just curious as to the reasoning.

Remember, when VFR, it's the pilot's responsibility to know where he is and avoid airspace he shouldn't be entering, or query ATC to cancel and change freqs if he knows he's going to. With VFR flight following, that's how it is. Even if center forgets about you, and you bust an airspace, it's your fault. Fly into terrain? Your fault. Hence in an area like PRC, it's more of a pain in the butt to use it, than not to and just work on tower freq the whole time with the standard "VFR practice approaches approved, IFR separation not provided" caveat from them. Less that can be missed or go wrong.

Tower instructed us to call center for approach coordination. I understand it was my fault, but I was used to the sequencing I would get with a terminal facility where they would get us in the airspace and then hand us off.

 

[MikeD]

Tower instructed us to call center for approach coordination. I understand it was my fault, but I was used to the sequencing I would get with a terminal facility where they would get us in the airspace and then hand us off.

Thats understandable. Just the one part of doing that which can bite you, is the part that did unfortunately. Oh well, no harm no foul. Situations like this which are errors, but don't result in any loss of life, damaged planes, or destroyed property on the ground...are some of the ways we live and learn in this biz.

 

[tgrayson]

With VFR flight following, that's how it is.

That's not how it's supposed to be from ATC's side:

From 7110.65, 2-1-16:

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility’s airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

 

[MikeD]

That's not how it's supposed to be from ATC's side:

From 7110.65, 2-1-16:

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility’s airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

Agree, that's what they're supposed to do. But being near the bottom of the rung, so to speak, when it comes to traffic priority; I stress to guys who get VFR flight following not to be a drone flying along and dependant on ATC to do their job. If you see something not looking right, say something; assuming you notice it in the first place. Just because a pilot is not expected to gain his/her own authorzation, won't protect said pilot from flak when he/she busts into said airspace without that authorization; as we see in the case of OP. ATC will have little problem trying to hang the pilot out to dry. ATC should've been on the ball doing their job, but so should have the PIC. Easy out would've been not to use the service in this particular case since it wasn't needed and had more chance to be a hinderance, rather than any sort of help, IMHO.

 

[papag]

Just to add to the topic. If you want more than flight following ie "traffic advisories" state it clearly. Often pilots request flight following then shut off the radio. We issue traffic and get no response. Some dont want to be bothered with traffic calls but just want to be tracked. Thats fine but make it clear. For example, "N123 on the xxx ramp VFR sw bound request flight following and traffic advisories to xyz." Its a little extra verbage but there can be no misunderstanding if you say it and its acknowleged. Controllers tend to hinge on specific words/phrases so please dont assume anything, state it clearly. If Im not clear in your mind or your not getting the service you expect, call me on it and let me know in no uncertain terms....Deal?

 

[papag]

What had happened was I was on with ABQ Center while doing VFR practice approaches at KPRC. What was explained to me was that it was a pilot deviation because by the time I had switched over to PRC tower, I was already committed to the airspace. Since they didn't have a radar feed, and since it was VFR practice approach own navigation, I was at fault.

My only explanation was just being unfamiliar, whether it was lapse in my training or just stupidity. While under terminal control, they vector us through all kinds of airspace while doing VFR practice approaches, the difference being with center, it was own navigation.

I dont know all the specifics of your situation but remember if you are specifically "cleared for an approach" be it VFR of IFR you are afforded IFR separation. If you are shooting an approach via your own nav and recieve no clearance you are treated as any other VFR and the onus falls on you. Communication between us is essential. If it aint clear, drop the pilot talk and say it like it is.......Best we understand each other in the end.

By the way you dont seem stupid to me. You sound like someone trying to improve our relationship.

 

[tgrayson]

If you want more than flight following ie "traffic advisories" state it clearly.

What is flight following if not traffic advisories?

 

[skydog]

I would say that ATC has no authority. They are not a law enforcement agency. Their sole job is to separate IFR traffic from other IFR traffic. They issue clearances which you can choose to accept, not directives with which you must comply. They can't sanction you if you choose not to accept a clearance.

Of course, you will have to explain to the FAA why you didn't, but that is a different issue.

 

[genot]

I would say that ATC has no authority. They are not a law enforcement agency. Their sole job is to separate IFR traffic from other IFR traffic. They issue clearances which you can choose to accept, not directives with which you must comply. They can't sanction you if you choose not to accept a clearance.

Of course, you will have to explain to the FAA why you didn't, but that is a different issue.

With all due respect, saying my only job is to seperate IFR traffic is about as insulting as someone telling you that as a pilot all you do is push buttons on your FMS and set the auto pilot to on (oh and that you all only work 2 hours a day and 8 days a week ). I know that is definately not true about pilots.

You are absolutely right about no authority though. I can't stop you from doing anything. Thats up to the FSDO for enforcement action.

 

[papag]

What is flight following if not traffic advisories?

This is exactly my point. To avoid any,ANY confusion state it as "flight following and traffic advisories". Some see flight following as simply tracking. I am a realist and see this day in and day out. The book is the book but we can communicate better than the book. Bottom line, dont leave anything to chance. I teach it to our new controllers and the toughest ones to get through to are the pilots that become controllers. Please Please this is not a slam......Just and observation of a controller with 25+ yrs on the job.

 

[papag]

I would say that ATC has no authority. They are not a law enforcement agency. Their sole job is to separate IFR traffic from other IFR traffic. They issue clearances which you can choose to accept, not directives with which you must comply. They can't sanction you if you choose not to accept a clearance.

Of course, you will have to explain to the FAA why you didn't, but that is a different issue.

No, IFR separation is not our SOLE responsibility. It is number one but we wear many hats and have a list of priorities. Pilots have one radio/one freq. and one call sign to be concerned about. Controllers listen and talk on 10-12 freqs at a time, to ten or more aircraft with different call signs requesting different services and separation continuously. Did I mention runway separation. Please dont whiddle down my job to IFR traffic it simply is not true.

 

[tgrayson]

Some see flight following as simply tracking.

You mean controllers?

 

[papag]

You mean controllers?

Yes controllers but pilots also. Its not uncommon for pilots to request flight following, taxi out and depart, then turn off/down the radio and we are scrambling to issue traffic they dont care to be advised of. After all they are VFR. Thats fine just make it clear and Ill provide the level of service you request, after all that is my job.

I do not want to fly your airplane, I do want to provide the service you request and expect.

 

[tgrayson]

provide the level of service you request,

Is it your argument that the above pilot who had a pilot deviation got it because he had not requested flight following OR traffic advisories, which removed the obligation of ATC to negotiate his traversal through airspaces?

 

[papag]

Is it your argument that the above pilot who had a pilot deviation got it because he had not requested flight following OR traffic advisories, which removed the obligation of ATC to negotiate his traversal through airspaces?

Absolutely not. I find with the few facts presented the pilot did nothing wrong. My goal is to open our lines of communication. Not hang pilots for our errors. Im adding to this as a general statement. If I was to say, "Contact tower freq. ##### and the pilot acknowleged but did not follow through....that is a pilot issue. If I did not coordinate with the tower and ran you into their airspace then thats my problem not yours as a pilot.