Exactly how much authority does ATC have?

[genot]

And I had a situation today where a Cessna with two very experienced pilots flew low and beyond my coverage or centers coverage. They called up after dropping off with an alternator failure. I told them I'd take care of their clearance through a class D so they could shut off radios. They still called up the tower to get their delta clearance. Heck they even fired up the transponder before entering so the tower could get a reference.

I'd chalk it up to if that gets busted, the controller stands to be called to the carpet and the FSDO would probably go after the pilot. Its so vague. Something that should be clarified in my mind. Of course that would add probably 3 pages to the .65 and a couple of paragraphs to the FARs. And we wonder how these documents get so big.

 

[ghogue]

Per the 7110.65 - pilots are required to establish two way radio communication prior to entering the Class Delta airspace. The word "tower" is nowhere in that requirement. Talking to the Center, fulfills the responsibility to establish two way radio communications. Centers and Tracons have their LOA's with the towers (usually) specifically dictating what they can and cannot do regarding borrowing someone else's airspace.

I'm not so sure of the above statement in light of the following Letter of Interpretation. The Interpretation deals specifically with Class C, however I think it would also apply to Class D as well. I don't think Center necessarily meets those requirements as specified in the letter. Everyone can read it for themselves and make up their own minds on what was said. I agree that the 7110.65 tells the controller to clear aircraft through adjoining surface areas, but the FAR holds the pilot responsible, and that is what a pilot has to keep in mind. I know that there are LOA's covering this, but ultimately, the pilot is responsible, regardless of what ATC does.

Underlines supplied.


Mike Granby
York, Pennsylvania 17406
Dear Mr. Granby:

In a letter dated February 10, 2006, you asked us about the meaning and application of Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) section 91.130(c)(1) which addresses arrival or through flight in Class C airspace. 14 CFR § 91.130(c)(1) states in relevant part:
Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements: Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

In your letter, you inquired whether use of the definite article “the”, which is italicized above, indicates a requirement to contact the air traffic control (ATC) facility charged with managing the specific Class C airspace or whether contact with any ATC facility would suffice. The answer is that the regulation requires that the operator contact the specific ATC facility responsible for the Class C airspace in question. In the case of Class C airspace, that facility is the Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON).

Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.

The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.

Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR. However, the FAA does recognize that there could be circumstances that mitigate the violation depending on the actual contents of the two-way communication between the pilot and the Center.

If you have any further questions please contact Mr. Naveen Rao of my staff at (202) 267-3073. Thank you for your inquiry.

Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations

 

[TripSix]

ghogue,

I get what you're saying, and the answer posted creates more confusion on this topic rather than clarify it - in my opinion.

My job as ATC is to get you from point A to point B as safely and quickly as I can. What I do know, as ATC - is that if I clip you through someone else's space without coordination on my end I'm going to answer for it.

It's frustrating to learn that something so relatively simple is so muddled in definition, and that you - a pilot, has one more thing to add to your plate.

The reference for the .65 specifically states Class D airspace. The answer you provided, even though it references Class C, goes against the very principle of what it is we try to accomplish. The very reason we have all these LOA's is to streamline this process and avoid undue workload on the system's users. It's kind of a kick in the face to see the contradiction. That, and it makes me wonder if the people who pass out these judgements have ever flown a plane or talked to one.

If you (or anyone else for that matter) feels better clarifying with the controller, by all means please do so. I'd rather have you take a second to ask and to tell you it's okay than to have you up there focusing on an imaginary line rather than your airplane.

 

[ghogue]

ghogue,


I get what you're saying, and the answer posted creates more confusion on this topic rather than clarify it - in my opinion.

My job as ATC is to get you from point A to point B as safely and quickly as I can. What I do know, as ATC - is that if I clip you through someone else's space without coordination on my end I'm going to answer for it.

It's frustrating to learn that something so relatively simple is so muddled in definition, and that you - a pilot, has one more thing to add to your plate.

The reference for the .65 specifically states Class D airspace. The answer you provided, even though it references Class C, goes against the very principle of what it is we try to accomplish. The very reason we have all these LOA's is to streamline this process and avoid undue workload on the system's users. It's kind of a kick in the face to see the contradiction. That, and it makes me wonder if the people who pass out these judgements have ever flown a plane or talked to one.

If you (or anyone else for that matter) feels better clarifying with the controller, by all means please do so. I'd rather have you take a second to ask and to tell you it's okay than to have you up there focusing on an imaginary line rather than your airplane.

I agree with all you say. I think controllers do an admirable job for us. It is awkward when you (the controller) have one source that states that you are responsible for performing a specific task, and we as pilots have a different one holding us ultimately responsible if you do not fulfill your responsibility, even inadvertently.

One of the reasons I posted this, though, is that I have heard a number of pilots tell me they don't care what the regs say, "as long as a controller tells me to do something, I'm covered". They seem to think that they have no responsibility for complying with regulations as long as they can point to the controller.

I guess, in many ways, I agree with the substance of the letter itself, in that the pilot is responsible per 91.3. As PIC, my responsibility can't be transferred to someone else, and this letter makes that clear, at least to me.

gary

 

[Sunburn]

I'll use the airspace i am all too familiar with, SCK. The class D surface area, is your standard 5 mile radius from the center of the airport, and we "own" up to 2,500ft. However, NCT has automatic point-outs at and above 2,000ft at which all aircraft in that airspace are suppose to be under NCT's control, and we lose an extra 500 ft, when we are IFR, so per LOA, an aircraft receiving FF at 2,000ft can cut through our airspace and never talk to use, as long as they are on with NCT, also NCT can vector IFR aircraft through our airspace at or above 2,000ft(1,500ft) VFR/IFR

 

[Juliet Lima]

Per the 7110.65 - pilots are required to establish two way radio communication prior to entering the Class Delta airspace. The word "tower" is nowhere in that requirement. Talking to the Center, fulfills the responsibility to establish two way radio communications. Centers and Tracons have their LOA's with the towers (usually) specifically dictating what they can and cannot do regarding borrowing someone else's airspace.

I completely see what your saying. All i'm saying is be careful. NOWHERE in our LOA with ZLC does it say anything about ZLC being able or required to point-out traffic to the tower. In fact, there is no ability to point-out traffic since we don't have a radar.

You mentioned establishing 2 way radio contact prior to entering a Class D. You have to assume and expect that they mean you need to establish radio contact with the facility that owns, or has jurisdiction, of that Class D.

this is completely far-fetched but...why not just ask for a weather brief from FSS for said Class D. that shows you have established radio contact with the "system" for that airport. then you can fly right down the middle of the Class D without talking to the tower.

 

[Juliet Lima]

I'll use the airspace i am all too familiar with, SCK. The class D surface area, is your standard 5 mile radius from the center of the airport, and we "own" up to 2,500ft. However, NCT has automatic point-outs at and above 2,000ft at which all aircraft in that airspace are suppose to be under NCT's control, and we lose an extra 500 ft, when we are IFR, so per LOA, an aircraft receiving FF at 2,000ft can cut through our airspace and never talk to use, as long as they are on with NCT, also NCT can vector IFR aircraft through our airspace at or above 2,000ft(1,500ft) VFR/IFR

how are pilots supposed to know this information. the LOA is between SCK and NCT. if i were the pilot i would worry about cutting through the Class D without talking to the tower. that's just me.