Exactly how much authority does ATC have?

[MikeD]

. If I did not coordinate with the tower and ran you into their airspace then thats my problem not yours as a pilot.

By the same token, I would expect a pilot to have enough situational awareness to know where he is in relation to airspace at all times, and not allow himself to be run into it without at least querying ATC. ATC provides great service, but that does not alleviate the responsibility of the pilot to know where his plane is going. FAR too many pilots think getting radar service, now becomes "I can sit fat/dumb/happy time."

 

[papag]

By the same token, I would expect a pilot to have enough situational awareness to know where he is in relation to airspace at all times, and not allow himself to be run into it without at least querying ATC. ATC provides great service, but that does not alleviate the responsibility of the pilot to know where his plane is going. FAR too many pilots think getting radar service, now becomes "I can sit fat/dumb/happy time."

Agreed. We share a unique responsibility to look out for one another. You gotta damage my ego to get it right then so be it. I gotta bust your chops for screwing up.....well lets talk on the phone then have a beer. Love working planes and I will always go out of my way to make it better.

 

[MikeD]

Agreed. We share a unique responsibility to look out for one another. You gotta damage my ego to get it right then so be it. I gotta bust your chops for screwing up.....well lets talk on the phone then have a beer. Love working planes and I will always go out of my way to make it better.

Agreed! I'm just very big on pilots exercising personal responsibility as PIC, and not blaming ATC for everything. Vice versa would be true too. Of course, deviations will happen, and hopefully they're minor and can be learned from and applied later. We live and learn.

I can't stand when one or the other side gets the shaft in an incident/accident, when there's more often than not a shared responsibility.

Reference the F-16/C-130 midair at Pope AFB in '94. ATC got hammered for allowing the F-16 SFO, to where the F-16 crew didn't see the C-130. Did the USAF forget that it was severe VMC? That when VMC, crews are responsible to clear their own flightpath? How was that ATCs fault?

Even the Eastern 401 accident in '72.....many people castigate ATC for, when noticing the L-1011 descending out of 2000' in a slow descent, the controller transmitted "Eastern 401, how's it going out there?" (paraphrased); instead of a more solid "Eastern 401, check altitude." I agree that would've remarkably helped, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that at least one of the three guys in a cockpit should've been monitoring what the aircraft was doing at all times.

 

[papag]

Mike D.......on that note I can remember about 25 yrs ago an aircraft inbound with the ATIS and a RY closure specified clearly. I reitterated the closure and asked for a subsequent reporting point. Pilot acknowledged and then reported 2SW or so. I re-stated the RY closure and proceeded to clear them to land on that closed RY. Pilot landed on the closed RY. MY Fault. No if ands or buts about it. But we share this responsibility of safety. Pilot was informed three times if you include the ATIS it was closed. Talk people and question when its not right.......

 

[MikeD]

Mike D.......on that note I can remember about 25 yrs ago an aircraft inbound with the ATIS and a RY closure specified clearly. I reitterated the closure and asked for a subsequent reporting point. Pilot acknowledged and then reported 2SW or so. I re-stated the RY closure and proceded to clear them to land on that closed RY. Pilot landed on the closed RY. MY Fault. No if ands or buts about it. But we share this responsibility of safety. Pilot was informed three times if you include the ATIS it was closed. Talk people and question when its not right.......

Agree on the shared responsibility on that one. ATC shouldn't have cleared, and pilot should've queried. Again, we live and learn.

One of the biggest that pisses me off is the Comair accident at LEX, and the claims that the one ATC controller should've been paying attention to where they were taxiing. I'm sorry, if you can't taxi to a correct runway, regardless of what construction is going on the field, without ATC babysitting you.....and even as a last resort, check the compass/HSI to match to the runway prior to releasing brakes; then I really have to wonder. Who would they have put the blame on had it not been a tower-equipped airport?

 

[papag]

Agree on the shared responsibility on that one. ATC shouldn't have cleared, and pilot should've queried. Again, we live and learn.

One of the biggest that pisses me off is the Comair accident at LEX, and the claims that the one ATC controller should've been paying attention to where they were taxiing. I'm sorry, if you can't taxi to a correct runway, regardless of what construction is going on the field, without ATC babysitting you.....and even as a last resort, check the compass/HSI to match to the runway prior to releasing brakes; then I really have to wonder. Who would they have put the blame on had it not been a tower-equipped airport?

This one has so many errors I cant even start to debate. Its a hot topic to say the least. Unlit Rwy, commented on in the cockpit.......Construction.......cleared for takeoff before they passed the end of a different Rwy etc. We could learn so much from this incident but everyone is hiding behind lawsuits. Sad, really sad...

 

[MikeD]

This one has so many errors I cant even start to debate. Its a hot topic to say the least. Unlit Rwy, commented on in the cockpit.......Construction.......cleared for takeoff before they passed the end of a different Rwy etc. We could learn so much from this incident but everyone is hiding behind lawsuits. Sad, really sad...

I agree with the error chain. But for me, the fact remains that the crew still took off on the wrong runway that was unlit, and they were THE LAST link in that chain that could've prevented it. The error chain is there, but not with ATC....ATC was tertiary responsibility/ additional factor, at best.

Everyone is hiding behind lawsuits, and that is sad.

One where ATC was at direct fault, IMO, and the aircrews could't do anything about it, was the US Air 1493/Skywest 5569 collision at LAX in '91. Skywest put in position and hold at an intersection at night; USAir cleared to land from a number of miles out. ATC thought they'd launched the Skywest already, USAir crew can't see the Metro on the runway with all the other tons of runway environment lighting. USAir lands and the first they see of the metro is when the crew notices it in the beam of their landing lights as it's still sitting position/hold with the resulting impact shortly thereafter. ATC thought the Metro had taken off, and no one even realized there was two airplanes involved until the ARFF crews fighting the fire on the 737, wondered why there was a turboprop engine and propeller underneath the 737 wreckage.

 

[skydog]

With all due respect, saying my only job is to seperate IFR traffic is about as insulting as someone telling you that as a pilot all you do is push buttons on your FMS and set the auto pilot to on (oh and that you all only work 2 hours a day and 8 days a week ). I know that is definately not true about pilots.

You are absolutely right about no authority though. I can't stop you from doing anything. Thats up to the FSDO for enforcement action.

Well of course I recognize that you have lots of job responsibilities. But all of those responsibilities are in the pursuit of one thing: IFR to IFR traffic separation, and IFR to VFR traffic separation (Ok, it's two things). I'm sure you have paperwork to do, training to complete, manuals to revise, and whatever else, just like the rest of us. But when you get right down to the bottom line, your purpose is to keep me from running into the other guy, and vice versa.

Take no offense. A pilot's job is to get from Point A to Point B safely. A mechanics's job is to keep the airplane working properly.

 

[MikeD]

A pilot's job is to get from Point A to Point B safely.

I thought a pilots job was to constantly try to get a better contract?

 

[papag]

I thought a pilots job was to constantly try to get a better contract?

LOL

 

[papag]

See we are talkin straight now, I like it......

 

[genot]

Well of course I recognize that you have lots of job responsibilities. But all of those responsibilities are in the pursuit of one thing: IFR to IFR traffic separation, and IFR to VFR traffic separation (Ok, it's two things). I'm sure you have paperwork to do, training to complete, manuals to revise, and whatever else, just like the rest of us. But when you get right down to the bottom line, your purpose is to keep me from running into the other guy, and vice versa.

Take no offense. A pilot's job is to get from Point A to Point B safely. A mechanics's job is to keep the airplane working properly.

Sorry man, didn't stop to think that it was a simplification. Times like these I really really wish both sides had better chances for more open dialogue.

 

[papag]

Well of course I recognize that you have lots of job responsibilities. But all of those responsibilities are in the pursuit of one thing: IFR to IFR traffic separation, and IFR to VFR traffic separation (Ok, it's two things). I'm sure you have paperwork to do, training to complete, manuals to revise, and whatever else, just like the rest of us. But when you get right down to the bottom line, your purpose is to keep me from running into the other guy, and vice versa.

Take no offense. A pilot's job is to get from Point A to Point B safely. A mechanics's job is to keep the airplane working properly.

You lost me in the end of this Skydog....Mechanic's etc. Please enlighten me as to what you mean. Myself and Genot are obviously a little defensive now being we have tried to be objective. You however seem a little offensive. Am I reading your post wrong?

 

[The Fez]

I'm just very big on pilots exercising personal responsibility as PIC, and not blaming ATC for everything. Vice versa would be true too.

Just thought I'd point out the irony in the above statement and MikeD's signature line.

 

[HiDef]

Just thought I'd point out the irony in the above statement and MikeD's signature line.

The way I read his sig. is to accept the blame when you're to blame. Sore losers tend to blame others, good losers tend to admit their mistakes and own up to them. Maybe his sig. could be read two ways but I don't think it's a contradiction at all. If anything it reaffirms what he's saying.

HD

 

[derg]

Pretty much my interpretation as well.

There's usually something we can all do different to get a more agreeable result the next time around.

 

[papag]

After reading many of his posts I read his sig as HIDEF does. Personal accountability. It extends far beyond our aviation lives.

 

[Juliet Lima]

Centers/Tracons have a letter of agreement with towers about where the switchover occurs. It's their responsibility (according to the 7110.65) to coordinate your interaction with other airspaces.

This is a bit at odds with the Part 91 requirement that you establish radio communications with the tower in question.

your assuming that a center or tracon has such agreement with the tower. it is still Part 91 that overrides any "possible" LOA or agreement between assumed center or tracon with said tower.

A pilot is required to establish radio contact with the tower before entering a class D airspace. even though you think it's center or approach's responsibility to "point you out" before you enter a class D.

you would be wrong...and a Pilot Deviation could be filed. Of course it's still up to FSDO to determine you were wrong. but you would be wrong...

 

[TripSix]

your assuming that a center or tracon has such agreement with the tower. it is still Part 91 that overrides any "possible" LOA or agreement between assumed center or tracon with said tower.

A pilot is required to establish radio contact with the tower before entering a class D airspace. even though you think it's center or approach's responsibility to "point you out" before you enter a class D.

you would be wrong...and a Pilot Deviation could be filed. Of course it's still up to FSDO to determine you were wrong. but you would be wrong...

Per the 7110.65 - pilots are required to establish two way radio communication prior to entering the Class Delta airspace. The word "tower" is nowhere in that requirement. Talking to the Center, fulfills the responsibility to establish two way radio communications. Centers and Tracons have their LOA's with the towers (usually) specifically dictating what they can and cannot do regarding borrowing someone else's airspace.

As a controller if you issue a control instruction to an aircraft that puts them in someone else's space in a manner not covered by the LOA without the proper coordination you're going to take it in the chin - not the pilot, as he/she was simply complying with your instruction.

Pilot deviation or not (which in this case, I think it's not), it's an OD for the controller as well.

 

[RS1]

One time I was going on a quick VFR from KLOM to N14... Route was basically KLOM PNE N14 to keep me out of Bravo and still allow me to have somewhat of a safe altitude... So as soon as I departed, I contacted PHL approach and requested flight following. They squawked me in and I continued my climb to 2500. So as I started approaching PNE (It's not far away at all.) I get ansi, and ask PHL controller:

Philly Approach, Skyhawk xxxxx, am I cleated into PNE's Delta Airspace?
Skyhawk xxxxx, Philly Approach, sorry about that, you are cleared into class Bravo Airspace. (Right after assinging airline traffic a vector or something, he was in a hurry)

So I get confused, and climb to 2800 to get above the Delta (which is 2600 there) less concerned about busting the Bravo shelf of 3000 since I was just apparently cleared into it.


So I had this question myself. Is ATC supposed to "clear" you into Delta if you are on FF with them, or talking to them? I am not sure, but I would just ask the controller I'm already talking to, and keep the Delta tower in Comm 2 incase you have to switch in a hurry.