Eagle pilots reject 'or else' offer

bLizZuE said:
They don't care about attracting new hires, in fact, that's the opposite of what our company cares about.

Our 8 year "abysmal" contract was the best bankruptcy contract that ever happened.

I sincerely hope you're speaking to management about being disillusioned.
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Do you really think that management acts the same during a contract dispute as during otherwise? Management is arrogant, but they're not stupid. Settle down, Chicken Little. Like I said before- they won't give up regional feed- they need it to keep mainline pilots in check at the table. Meanwhile, we normalize costs and rise towards them. Things get better for all.

You haven't got any real logic to offer here- your whole argument is "is not!!1!"

People that believe they have the advantage don't make threats. Eagle pilots will come out of this okay. But we can't freak out about this.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Eagle line guys did not vote. The MEC said "no thank you" and are going about drafting a more reasonable proposal.
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So the title of your thread is kind of incorrect. The Eagle "pilots" didn't reject anything. The MEC chose to reject it without a pilot vote. If I recall the B Scale proposal was also rejected by the MEC and not the pilots?

Getting into DFR territory here.
 
BobDDuck said:
So the title of your thread is kind of incorrect. The Eagle "pilots" didn't reject anything. The MEC chose to reject it without a pilot vote. If I recall the B Scale proposal was also rejected by the MEC and not the pilots?

Getting into DFR territory here.
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Not at all. Pilots have been very vocal in communicating with their LEC and MEC officers. The MEC doesn't make a go/no go call unless they think it's an unviable proposal. Once they come forward with something workable, it gets sent out for a direct vote.

This is why we have an MEC, after all. We get a lot of feedback when we ask for it. And standing rules say the pilot group at large always gets last say on a major policy issue.

... and yes, Eagle pilots rejected this. Line pilots that supported the proposal are very, very few, and the MEC is aware of this. The fact that the process wasn't formally balloted is irrelevant.
 
BobDDuck said:
So the title of your thread is kind of incorrect. The Eagle "pilots" didn't reject anything. The MEC chose to reject it without a pilot vote. If I recall the B Scale proposal was also rejected by the MEC and not the pilots?

Getting into DFR territory here.
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How is it DFR? The rules are written in a way that make every line pilot no more than one elected rep away from a vote. You as a line guy elect your rep and the rep elects the MEC. I know you know this, but others don't. The line pilot puts their trust and faith in the elected representative to do as they pledge during the campaign. The reps "should" do as their constituents want, within reason, but I think it is a stretch to call this a DFR issue.

It's as much the line guys fault or responsibility to keep up with what is going on with their representation. Sort of a microcosm of our government. If you do not write, call, send smoke signals, or do any other form of correspondence with your elected reps then you do not have an issue to bitch.

While I think firebird can be a little aggressive with his thinking from time to time at least he makes his issues known to his reps. You cannot ask for much more in my opinion.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Do you really think that management acts the same during a contract dispute as during otherwise? Management is arrogant, but they're not stupid. Settle down, Chicken Little. Like I said before- they won't give up regional feed- they need it to keep mainline pilots in check at the table. Meanwhile, we normalize costs and rise towards them. Things get better for all.

You haven't got any real logic to offer here- your whole argument is "is not!!1!"

People that believe they have the advantage don't make threats. Eagle pilots will come out of this okay. But we can't freak out about this.
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They won't give up regional feed? What have they been doing over the last two years? They've been moving it easily elsewhere, as they'll continue to do as necessary. Mainline pilots aren't at the negotiating table over our feed.

You're living in a dream where we stand up to the big bad boss and we all get ponies with rainbow colored manes. I think it's cute that you're so passionate about standing up for the Eagle pilots but I think it's pathetic that you're so disillusioned as to how the process really works.

Again: the MEC didn't "reject" anything, they're creating a counter proposal. That's how negotiations work. If we had rejected it, the MEC would have gone to a vote and it would have failed. They wouldn't have directed the negotiating committee to craft a counter proposal if the MEC "rejected" it. Furthermore, our company has been and will continue to move airplanes to lower cost regionals as needed; our ability to retain or gain any flying is directly related to how much money they can bleed from us. Reality, try it on for size.
 
Firebird2XC said:
I'm not really sure what that means. I try not to spend too much time in Tennessee. No good layovers there.

As for leverage- as was mentioned above- regionals operate up to 50% of a brand's total revenue traffic in some cases. And here's the kicker- because of the hub and spoke system, a large amount of those traveling into those hubs become traffic on the mainline partner's segments. If the regionals go away, sure, some folks will drive in, but a lot might not. And then who fills the seats of the mainline jets?

The regional market is more important to the whole of an airline than people think. And it's time we started acting like it at the negotiating table.
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The Comair guys had an enormous concentration at CVG. They went on strike and turned CVG into a ghost town. They got large advances in their CBA.

Delta shut down their most senior hub. Then they intermixed the various regionals on the routes do there wasn't a monopoly on "struck work". You were flying the 9 am departure, they flew the 10 am. Then Comair was shopped around with no takers. ASA was put on the block and Comair was shut down.

ACA and air wis told United to pay. ACA's managers thought they had IAD on lock. They were a huge airline and between the two carriers almost all United's feed. UAL told them both to take a walk. ACA vaporized and Air Wis put a sizable investment into airways to place their 50 seaters.

XJT was a wholly-owned for cal limited to 50 seaters. The company was spun off, and allowed to fend for itself with an uncompetitive fleet. Still taking 50 seat jets for that market that was over subscribed, while the independent competitors were already investing in larger aircraft.

As much as it sucks, mainline holds all the marbles. It's especially bad when a carrier only has one customer. It's not coincidental the feed monopoly ended for several carriers after the Comair strike.

Mainline will cut their nose to spite their face when it comes to regional feed.. They are aggressive and ruthless. Wholly-owned or not, the more diverse the customer base, the better your chances downline in a FFD world.

Best of luck to the eagle pilots. I hope you can be the ones that change the system.
 
bLizZuE said:
They won't give up regional feed? What have they been doing over the last two years? They've been moving it easily elsewhere, as they'll continue to do as necessary. Mainline pilots aren't at the negotiating table over our feed.

You're living in a dream where we stand up to the big bad boss and we all get ponies with rainbow colored manes. I think it's cute that you're so passionate about standing up for the Eagle pilots but I think it's pathetic that you're so disillusioned as to how the process really works.
.
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For a guy that claims to be a writer, you use lots of words you don't understand.

Regional feed does not consist solely of Eagle. It never has. Your constant misuse of the term suggests that they are one in the same. Regional feed may or may not continue to consist largely of Eagle, but that has very little to do with whether or not we let management con us into another round of concessions.

And your idea of 'reality' is to ignore any variable but one and then sit in the corner and cry about it. There are a lot of moving parts in this business- look into it them.

And you can play the semantics game all you want- when somebody issues an ultimatum with a doomsday clause, and you say "no, but I might consider this," the item has been rejected.

Www.dictionary.com
 
You guys are arguing over semantics. The fact of the matter is that the airline's proposal, in its current form, is unlikely to be accepted. This is good news. They knew we wouldn't take this offer; it's a joke. Anybody remember the junk which was "offered" to American APA a few brief years ago? It was a joke, too. The first offer sets the bar low so that the next offer appears far better.

Compass just got a better deal. Xjt has a better deal on the table and, rightfully, it may not pass.

You must notice that the Pedrito statement Friday afternoon was "we are hopeful a deal can be worked out," not "9800 flights to Abilene and Kingman begin Monday."
 
roundout said:
You guys are arguing over semantics. The fact of the matter is that the airline's proposal, in its current form, is unlikely to be accepted. This is good news. They knew we wouldn't take this offer; it's a joke. Anybody remember the junk which was "offered" to American APA a few brief years ago? It was a joke, too. The first offer sets the bar low so that the next offer appears far better.

Compass just got a better deal. Xjt has a better deal on the table and, rightfully, it may not pass.

You must notice that the Pedrito statement Friday afternoon was "we are hopeful a deal can be worked out," not "9800 flights to Abilene and Kingman begin Monday."
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Well said. And considering that the 9xxx flights are flights we're picking up because outsourced flying can't staff or equip them, what then?

Where is this magical new staffing going to come from? The whole regional industry is cavitating the pump.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Well said. And considering that the 9xxx flights are flights we're picking up because outsourced flying can't staff or equip them, what then?

Where is this magical new staffing going to come from? The whole regional industry is cavitating the pump.
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I see the ad on this site saying that ATP is opening two new locations this January. How many locations have they opened in the last year? How busy is their school? They must be doing ok to keep opening new schools. ????
 
block30 said:
I see the ad on this site saying that ATP is opening two new locations this January. How many locations have they opened in the last year? How busy is their school? They must be doing ok to keep opening new schools. ????
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I inquired about one of their branch locations once. It was a local outfit operating through a partnership. One plane. One instructor. Are these 'new schools' an increase in the training hour supply? Or just them buying out smaller outfits to increase market share? Do you know? Your statement is Sophistry.

The decline in new certificate applications is better forecast of pilot training.

The flight school where I did my multi work advertised planes with GPS, radar, and storm scopes. One had GPS, one had radar (which didn't work), one had a storm scope...

Using flight school propaganda to support an argument is kinda reaching.
 
Polar742 said:
The Comair guys had an enormous concentration at CVG. They went on strike and turned CVG into a ghost town. They got large advances in their CBA.

Delta shut down their most senior hub. Then they intermixed the various regionals on the routes do there wasn't a monopoly on "struck work". You were flying the 9 am departure, they flew the 10 am. Then Comair was shopped around with no takers. ASA was put on the block and Comair was shut down.

ACA and air wis told United to pay. ACA's managers thought they had IAD on lock. They were a huge airline and between the two carriers almost all United's feed. UAL told them both to take a walk. ACA vaporized and Air Wis put a sizable investment into airways to place their 50 seaters.

XJT was a wholly-owned for cal limited to 50 seaters. The company was spun off, and allowed to fend for itself with an uncompetitive fleet. Still taking 50 seat jets for that market that was over subscribed, while the independent competitors were already investing in larger aircraft.

As much as it sucks, mainline holds all the marbles. It's especially bad when a carrier only has one customer. It's not coincidental the feed monopoly ended for several carriers after the Comair strike.

Mainline will cut their nose to spite their face when it comes to regional feed.. They are aggressive and ruthless. Wholly-owned or not, the more diverse the customer base, the better your chances downline in a FFD world.

Best of luck to the eagle pilots. I hope you can be the ones that change the system.
Click to expand...

Post of the thread.

Wondering if you will either be ignored or told to 'be quiet'.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Firebird2XC said:
For a guy that claims to be a writer, you use lots of words you don't understand.

Regional feed does not consist solely of Eagle. It never has. Your constant misuse of the term suggests that they are one in the same. Regional feed may or may not continue to consist largely of Eagle, but that has very little to do with whether or not we let management con us into another round of concessions.

And your idea of 'reality' is to ignore any variable but one and then sit in the corner and cry about it. There are a lot of moving parts in this business- look into it them.

And you can play the semantics game all you want- when somebody issues an ultimatum with a doomsday clause, and you say "no, but I might consider this," the item has been rejected.

Www.dictionary.com
Click to expand...

Published and paid. No claim to be a very good writer, though.

I'm not crying, I'm just trying to bring you back to the planet we live on. I certainly hope we get a shot at a better deal than what was offered, but I have little hope for much improvement.
 
Seggy said:
Post of the thread.

Wondering if you will either be ignored or told to 'be quiet'.
Click to expand...

All good info, but the key part of it is "having one customer". All eggs in one basket is never a good thing, and is a very difficult....but not necessarily impossible......position to negotiate from. It's still a position that always places you behind the 8 ball from the start though.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Well said. And considering that the 9xxx flights are flights we're picking up because outsourced flying can't staff or equip them, what then?

Where is this magical new staffing going to come from? The whole regional industry is cavitating the pump.
Click to expand...

The contract in place has no spare aircraft. That means when an airplane goes down for MX, Eagle was to cover the flying per the contract. Therefore, it speaks nothing to the ability of XJT to cover the flying.
 
roundout said:
You guys are arguing over semantics. The fact of the matter is that the airline's proposal, in its current form, is unlikely to be accepted. This is good news. They knew we wouldn't take this offer; it's a joke. Anybody remember the junk which was "offered" to American APA a few brief years ago? It was a joke, too. The first offer sets the bar low so that the next offer appears far better.

Compass just got a better deal. Xjt has a better deal on the table and, rightfully, it may not pass.

You must notice that the Pedrito statement Friday afternoon was "we are hopeful a deal can be worked out," not "9800 flights to Abilene and Kingman begin Monday."
Click to expand...
Remember that we hold zero similarities to AA. We are not a brand.
 
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