Eagle pilots reject 'or else' offer

Trip7 said:
Looking at my post history, nothing has been far off except ASA growing like crazy :)
Click to expand...

Welp, I'll just take your word for it. You got the aviation degree not me.. Sorry for the interruption, folks. Y'all go back to it. I'll just hang up and listen.
 
Last edited:
Polar742 said:
The Comair guys had an enormous concentration at CVG. They went on strike and turned CVG into a ghost town. They got large advances in their CBA.

Delta shut down their most senior hub. Then they intermixed the various regionals on the routes do there wasn't a monopoly on "struck work". You were flying the 9 am departure, they flew the 10 am. Then Comair was shopped around with no takers. ASA was put on the block and Comair was shut down.

ACA and air wis told United to pay. ACA's managers thought they had IAD on lock. They were a huge airline and between the two carriers almost all United's feed. UAL told them both to take a walk. ACA vaporized and Air Wis put a sizable investment into airways to place their 50 seaters.

XJT was a wholly-owned for cal limited to 50 seaters. The company was spun off, and allowed to fend for itself with an uncompetitive fleet. Still taking 50 seat jets for that market that was over subscribed, while the independent competitors were already investing in larger aircraft.
Click to expand...


That may all be true, but is also ancient history. Comair struck almost 15 years ago, ACA walked away from united in 2003.

At those times there were a lot more pilots than jobs, and Mesa could undercut everyone and not have to worry about finding warm bodies to fill the cockpits.
 
ATP routinely opens and closes locations, I wouldn't read into it too much. BWG had two instructors, one 172 and one Seminole. When I was at PIE we had less than 10 students, we also closed locations like SUA, PDX, and at least one location in the NYC area I think... I wouldn't read into it too much.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Just saw your thread. Like I said Firebird, we got your back here. If any AE flying does come, it won't be because we accepted a substandard contract to whipsaw you.

Our current stance is were not passing any TA without decent: hourly raises, trip rigs or duty rigs, and cx pay. Period.

Looks like the naysayers from the previous thread were wrong after all.
Click to expand...

Booyah! One team, one fight!
 
block30 said:
What? Are you saying I am reaching?? What am In reaching for? I was just soliciting people's input as to what is going on at ATP. I assumed they are finding financial reasons to expand. Did I come off as brusque?
Click to expand...

Your excessive punctuation use seemed to imply a 'loaded question' tone. If that wasn't the case, my bad.

My point is, flight schools have to evolve the produce the product (cheap noob pilots) that primarily one place (the airline industry) wants.
They're probably shuckin' and jivin' all over the place trying to get people to come to school. Offering more locations could be seen as a cost incentive to students to not have to relocate to train. If they were expanding because they couldn't enroll everybody that's asking, they'd keep just expanding known infrastructure. Real estate costs money.
 
bLizZuE said:
They don't care about attracting new hires, in fact, that's the opposite of what our company cares about.

Our 8 year "abysmal" contract was the best bankruptcy contract that ever happened.

I sincerely hope you're speaking to management about being disillusioned.
Click to expand...
If they don't care about attracting new hires then why the hell is there a $5000 sign on bonus or a $10000 "tuition reimbursement" or agreements with flight training providers?
Why did Garton testify to the fact that Eagle was concerned with the lack of applicants and the fear of unable to staff the airline when seeking amendments to the "1500 hour rule"

Just because you believe our TA was the best POS still doesn't detract that it's a POS. Threats and empty promises put fear in the pilot group, and you were complicit.

I have sent a letter to all the reps expressing my disillusionment and spoken to quite a few in person.

It seems as if you are eagerly awaiting the draw down and eventual closure of Eagle. Why is that? Is there a position at www.collaborativelabor.com waiting for you, so you to can espouse your prowess in helping to negotiate a concessionary contract?

S
 
Binet-Simon said:
If they don't care about attracting new hires then why the hell is there a $5000 sign on bonus or a $10000 "tuition reimbursement" or agreements with flight training providers?
Why did Garton testify to the fact that Eagle was concerned with the lack of applicants and the fear of unable to staff the airline when seeking amendments to the "1500 hour rule"

Just because you believe our TA was the best POS still doesn't detract that it's a POS. Threats and empty promises put fear in the pilot group, and you were complicit.

I have sent a letter to all the reps expressing my disillusionment and spoken to quite a few in person.

It seems as if you are eagerly awaiting the draw down and eventual closure of Eagle. Why is that? Is there a position at www.collaborativelabor.com waiting for you, so you to can espouse your prowess in helping to negotiate a concessionary contract?

S
Click to expand...

If they really cared about attracting new hires they would put something on the books. A pay rate in the contract. They instead have chosen to spend quite literally millions of dollars in pre-contractual deals to staff the airline. We could staff this airline with enough new-hires for all eternity with one swift move: make second year FO pay, first year FO pay.

I believe that the Seahawks are going to win the superbowl, but I know that our contract is the best contract any airline has ever seen during bankruptcy. The placement of the quotations indicate hypothetical description of the TA, which everyone believes to be abysmal, when in reality it was quite good considering the threats and history of bankrupt airlines.

Finally, I'm not excited or hopeful for any draw down. I am however firmly rooted in reality when it comes to how the next few weeks and years will play out. Some here prefer to get angry and emotional and believe in poetic protest as a form of change. I want Eagle to prosper as a place to work not only for myself, the pilot group, but also the future pilots that will come here. However I have little faith in our ability to make progress in these negotiations that will resemble the dream sheet that so many Eagle pilots feel they deserve.

ps- I didn't negotiate anything, I wrote emails.
 
bLizZuE said:
If they really cared about attracting new hires they would put something on the books. A pay rate in the contract. They instead have chosen to spend quite literally millions of dollars in pre-contractual deals to staff the airline. We could staff this airline with enough new-hires for all eternity with one swift move: make second year FO pay, first year FO pay.

I believe that the Seahawks are going to win the superbowl, but I know that our contract is the best contract any airline has ever seen during bankruptcy. The placement of the quotations indicate hypothetical description of the TA, which everyone believes to be abysmal, when in reality it was quite good considering the threats and history of bankrupt airlines.

Finally, I'm not excited or hopeful for any draw down. I am however firmly rooted in reality when it comes to how the next few weeks and years will play out. Some here prefer to get angry and emotional and believe in poetic protest as a form of change. I want Eagle to prosper as a place to work not only for myself, the pilot group, but also the future pilots that will come here. However I have little faith in our ability to make progress in these negotiations that will resemble the dream sheet that so many Eagle pilots feel they deserve.

ps- I didn't negotiate anything, I wrote emails.
Click to expand...
I hesitate to reply to you because I've seen how you like to detract attention from topics at hand. You were the communications rep. You were the mouth piece of the union. Tone and delivery play an important part in communication. Compare our current Comm. chair and your tenure. We are receiving timely, accurate, and less fear filled communications. Our pilot group made a decision out of fear and again you were complicit.
If you query the pilots that were coerced into voting yes, do you think they still agree they made the right decision to obtain an "industry leading concessionary contract". I think not.

S
 
You misunderstand the job of the communications chairman. I was tasked with communicating what the MEC wanted. I was not tasked with asserting my opinion. I was also hindered in my ability to communicate by an entire team of lawyers. Additionally, even though I wrote a lot of what you read, most of it was not my own but a collaborative effort between the leadership and various other subject matter experts.

It's always funny to me how when an administration change occurs all of a sudden the sky is brighter and the grass is greener. You may think things are drastically different, and that's fine, but I don't really see any difference.
 
I fully understand he job of communications chairman. Your "out" is that you had no choice but to write what you were told to write.

As far as the administration change, the current Comm Chairman would be bound by the same constraints as you were. I'm not saying there's a drastic difference but there is noticeable difference in the tone and frequency of the emails.

Your position during the bankruptcy TA was not an admirable one to be in, but your delivery (whether forced or not) led to pilots placing a vote based on fear. We were misguided and hoodwinked into believing that if we didn't vote "yes" that it would be the end of Eagle. So the majority voted "yes" and now we find ourselves in the same situation. The difference being, is now with a change of leadership we have a group willing to put up a fight while not scaring the pilot group into taking more concessions.

S
 
If I may...

So much of what the communications committee is able to do, whether they personally agree with it or not, is up to the MEC Chairman or Vice Chairman.

Ask me how I know, and I have a damn good academic background in communications to back it up.

I have seen significant failures in organizational, internal, and crisis communication within a MEC.

When the "management" at the top of an MEC is afraid to be criticized about the message or the medium to be used or they are unwilling to listen to new ideas on how to communicate more effectively, concerns begin to grow.

Very sad that a director level position within any other organization is cast aside as merely a tool to spread propaganda within ours. Eventually pilots see through it and eventually whatever positive reputation the organization had eventually erodes to where the pilots no longer feel that those who represent them have any legitimacy. A real shame.

That said - don't jump down blizzue's throat too much. A change from a "manager" MEC Chairman to a "leader" very well may bring a significant change in tone, message, and delivery of communications from the top. What you may be seeing is a new leader being accountable for the future without fear of being chastised because he/she believes in the fight that they are engaged in.
 
Last edited:
jtrain609 said:
Jesus, guys. If y'all spent this much time combating management instead of each other you might have some hope of not getting hosed on your contract.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but bro, we're pilots.

We can never be happy.
 
surreal1221 said:
Yeah, but bro, we're pilots.

We can never be happy.
Click to expand...

I can appreciate that, but the way we behave is so counter productive it's simply infuriating. Most arguments that we make, even against each other, look like this to management:

wharrgarblhx7.jpg
 
jtrain609 said:
I can appreciate that, but the way we behave is so counter productive it's simply infuriating. Most arguments that we make, even against each other, look like this to management:
Click to expand...

Duh.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top