DOJ sues to prevent LCC/AMR link up

[skyw82]

The DOJ blowing up the merger is Horton's whole idea, I think. Horton hasn't done much of anything in quite some time. Just because Judge Lane approved the POR doesn't mean it's a done deal- the DOJ definitely still has the last say, and a lot of the pundits are saying the odds of winning the DOJ case are about 50/50 for AMR. A coin toss. Pay attention!

Uh I have been paying attention, which is why I understand this process. Your previous comments make me believe you don't understand them. Horton doesn't have some backroom deal to try and blow this up, this isn't game of thrones. What is going on in his head vs what he is and has been doing is another. You may wishfully believe there is some kind of agenda he is trying to push but he has to fully support the merger both publicly and behind the scenes because it's his job. Anything to the contrary will not only have him removed even if the merger doesn't happen but would have him face a civil suit at best and a criminal charges at worst in either case.

But you wanna talk lower paying mainline jobs? AA's scale beats USAir's by a country mile. What logic are you even using?
And it doesn't matter to me, personally, whether I flow now or later- so long as guys senior to me at Eagle do. The money I make today, with the proverbial bird in the hand, is worth far more IN MY HAND than the money I *might* make tomorrow via some pie-in-the-sky seat-capacity-reduction-and-airline-profitability-pipe-dream. This is even more true when I consider potential ROE over time with money I can make and invest now rather than later.

I'm done waiting to get paid 'someday'. I can do more now with the money in hand than I can with some empty promise of a future that may never happen. But hey, go back to whatever you're smoking. It seems like it must be some good stuff.

Yes I know US air makes crappy pay, but minus a merger so will AA compared to United and DAL. The merger has both Usair and AA at the same or with higher pay than united and dal in 2016. Without it us airways stays at their current rates and AA is stuck with whatever they get in chpt 11. Which will last another year or two I might add.

Its stupid to not want to have higher paying airlines and healthier growing industry vs an industry where half of them make far less and have to eek out profits every quarter. As a pilot you want to have everyone making the most they can.

So you don't want to even flow you just want the senior guys to get out of your way so you can be a senior f/o? Sorry but wanting the industry with a lower standard wage so you can be at the top end of a regional makes me think you need to have a drug test.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Its stupid to not want to have higher paying airlines and healthier growing industry vs an industry where half of them make far less and have to eek out profits every quarter. As a pilot you want to have everyone making the most they can.

So you don't want to even flow you just want the senior guys to get out of your way so you can be a senior f/o? Sorry but wanting the industry with a lower standard wage so you can be at the top end of a regional makes me think you need to have a drug test.

Derp derp derp derp derp derpity derp..

Everybody knows healthy airlines mean profits. But they don't mean pilots get paid more. Progression, promotion, and contract negotiations do. The first two are dependent on not creating redundancies, and the latter has been on a steady decline since air travel was made a commodity by Deregulation over 30 years ago. Ergo, anything that slows promotion rates while merger mania tries to artificially bottleneck supply means fewer dollars flowing everybody's way. You think because the airlines are suddenly more profitable that they're just going to rain money on employees? You really haven't been paying attention. The only reason that worked before Deregulation was because airline employees had Scope and Strike scenarios that supported it. Pilots still had to fight to get paid! That doesn't exist anymore. So reducing the number of jobs via merger will only stagnate airline growth and pilot promotion. The merged airlines will be bigger, and the number of brands will be reduced, but the actual amount of airline flying done by that carrier will be reduced. Meanwhile, the amount of air travel is expected to grow like crazy. You don't have to merge to ensure market demand will grow. You just have to wait!

Reducing the number of existing brands was a way to rapidly out-grow the rest of the market share. It doesn't mean that profit won't rise without it. Geebus you're dense. If you can grow organically following successful reorganization, there's no reason to merge with anybody. Delta/NWA and UA/CAL merged because it let them grow in a way that leapfrogged carriers bigger than them.

.... and no, you idiot, I don't want to be a senior FO. I already am. I want the guys over me to flow so I can be a senior Captain, and stack money for a rainy day when the airlines fall on their faces again.

You're done. No more talking for you. There's no point in explaining something to someone who goes out of their way to misunderstand things.

 

[skyw82]

Everybody knows healthy airlines mean profits. But they don't mean pilots get paid more. Progression, promotion, and contract negotiations do. The first two are dependent on not creating redundancies, and the latter has been on a steady decline since air travel was made a commodity by Deregulation over 30 years ago. Ergo, anything that slows promotion rates while merger mania tries to artificially bottleneck supply means fewer dollars flowing everybody's way. You think because the airlines are suddenly more profitable that they're just going to rain money on employees? You really haven't been paying attention. The only reason that worked before Deregulation was because airline employees had Scope and Strike scenarios that supported it. Pilots still had to fight to get paid! That doesn't exist anymore. So reducing the number of jobs via merger will only stagnate airline growth and pilot promotion. The merged airlines will be bigger, and the number of brands will be reduced, but the actual amount of airline flying done by that carrier will be reduced. Meanwhile, the amount of air travel is expected to grow like crazy. You don't have to merge to ensure market demand will grow. You just have to wait!

But merged airlines aren't stagnating and with retirements the airlines will have to continue to hire. Just look at united, they are running classes and have projected to increase the sizes as the months go on. A merger with us and AA won't cause the hiring to stop. The retirements are still coming and the aircraft are still being delivered. You'll still have your flow and there will stil be growth in the markets that need them. Any loss of pilot growth from these mergers are negligible and imo they are worth for the increase in pay and industry stability. I don't know about you but I don't want to back to the 2% profit margin days.

Do you really think US air or AA will get a contract that is on par with UA or DAL without the merger? Of course not, the same would have been true for CAL or NWA and Airtran. If you think that Aitran would have been making sw pay without this merger they you are the one who is dense.

Reducing the number of existing brands was a way to rapidly out-grow the rest of the market share. It doesn't mean that profit won't rise without it. Geebus you're dense. If you can grow organically following successful reorganization, there's no reason to merge with anybody. Delta/NWA and UA/CAL merged because it let them grow in a way that leapfrogged carriers bigger than them.

Well that's the thing None of those airline would have grown organically. I know for a fact Us air won't grow organically and the "horton stand alone plan" that he tried to push was organic growth at the regional level. Do you really think AA was going to grown to the size of united organically? That would have put them right back into chpt 11.

.... and no, you idiot, I don't want to be a senior FO. I already am. I want the guys over me to flow so I can be a senior Captain, and stack money for a rainy day when the airlines fall on their faces again.

You're done. No more talking for you. There's no point in explaining something to someone who goes out of their way to misunderstand things.

You can have your opinions but don't lose your cool and call people names when someone disagrees with you. I've seen you do it in other threads before with other people. So by all means keep your opinions to yourself if you can't act like an adult.

 

[Seggy]

This is great! Please keep discussing you two!


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[learhawkerbe400]

Firebird is way out in left field on this one. I personally don't think the merger will go through, but not because of Horton sabotaging it. And trust me, I really want it to happen.

 

[meyers9163]

I guess I don't see the case against it. The DOJ in my mind now has a much more difficult case with Deltas earnings. It shows the HUGE power house DAL is and UAL is most likely becoming. You prevent a merger of AA and US you basically are writing the death certificate for them to compete against DAL and UAL. You truly then have a duopoly and the strong possibility of neither AA or US to compete with them.

Further there's no true reasoning in the DOJs case and thus all the support from huge powerful mayors and State AGs and also US Senators (democratic ones at that) sending a strong message to allow this deal to go through.

Horton wants out This is his out with $20 million. How you can say he's sabotaging anything makes me question ones mindset. He wants his money and to be done.

Call me crazy. Airways in Parker, Kirby and Isom have been impressive in making money and getting things done. There's more to these settlement talks I think and SWA and B6 are in the background supporting such in hopes of having a shot at some divestiture of a small amount of slots in DCA.

 

[L-16B]

Everybody knows healthy airlines mean profits. But they don't mean pilots get paid more. Progression, promotion, and contract negotiations do. The first two are dependent on not creating redundancies, and the latter has been on a steady decline since air travel was made a commodity by Deregulation over 30 years ago. Ergo, anything that slows promotion rates while merger mania tries to artificially bottleneck supply means fewer dollars flowing everybody's way. You think because the airlines are suddenly more profitable that they're just going to rain money on employees? You really haven't been paying attention. The only reason that worked before Deregulation was because airline employees had Scope and Strike scenarios that supported it. Pilots still had to fight to get paid! That doesn't exist anymore. So reducing the number of jobs via merger will only stagnate airline growth and pilot promotion. The merged airlines will be bigger, and the number of brands will be reduced, but the actual amount of airline flying done by that carrier will be reduced. Meanwhile, the amount of air travel is expected to grow like crazy. You don't have to merge to ensure market demand will grow. You just have to wait!

Reducing the number of existing brands was a way to rapidly out-grow the rest of the market share. It doesn't mean that profit won't rise without it. Geebus you're dense. If you can grow organically following successful reorganization, there's no reason to merge with anybody. Delta/NWA and UA/CAL merged because it let them grow in a way that leapfrogged carriers bigger than them.

.... and no, you idiot, I don't want to be a senior FO. I already am. I want the guys over me to flow so I can be a senior Captain, and stack money for a rainy day when the airlines fall on their faces again.

You're done. No more talking for you. There's no point in explaining something to someone who goes out of their way to misunderstand things.

The merger means higher pay for both sides. End of story.

 

[amorris311]

The merger means higher pay for both sides. End of story.

What do you know?

 

[L-16B]

What do you know?

I know I'm not sitting in room 141 in Romulus playing with my iPad. Sleeping with other grown men in one hotel room.

 

[skyw82]

Anyone know why parker and horton were in dc the past two days?

 

[crashmbern]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-feds-agree-mediator-merger-230100333.html

Could mean nothing but hopefully they work something out.

 

[Kingairer]

It was court ordered that they hire a mediator, and they have . Don't read into it more than that.

 

[mikecweb]

Anyone know why parker and horton were in dc the past two days?

Fall colors on the mall.

 

[Seggy]

Thoughts on this @skyw82 and @Firebird2XC ?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013...nes-usairways-antitrust-idUSBRE9A30QS20131104

Looks like the right wheels are being greased and the merger is going to happen...

 

[Kingairer]

I feel like itll happen now. Both sides have said they want to settle, so its just a matter of getting a deal where AA can still compete, and the DOJ say they did something.

 

[skyw82]

Thoughts on this @skyw82 and @Firebird2XC ?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013...nes-usairways-antitrust-idUSBRE9A30QS20131104

Looks like the right wheels are being greased and the merger is going to happen...

Looks that way, I think we'll know if a few days. I just wonder what made the doj retreat from their hard line stance of not settling easy.

This could all go south as well but seeing as how both airlines stock have risen by as much as 25% in a few hours, I think wall street has already decided.

Wish I would have bought about a thousand shares of AA stock a year ago.

 

[ERfly]

Thoughts on this @skyw82 and @Firebird2XC ?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013...nes-usairways-antitrust-idUSBRE9A30QS20131104

Looks like the right wheels are being greased and the merger is going to happen...

I think the DOJ is trying to save face at this point. The acted all tough. But, as more and more facts came out, their case looked weaker and weaker. I think if they make US/AA give up a few things, it'll make it look like they still care about the American consumer. If they go to trial, they could lose and not get anything. In the end, I think everyone will walk away from this happy (except for Firebird2XC and his flow-through). I hope we see a resolution before too long. I have a feeling we'll be having Day 1 celebrations before Christmas.


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[learhawkerbe400]

I've been pretty pessimistic about the chances of the merger going through. The news over the past few days has made me start to change my thinking ever so slightly. I'm thinking a settlement could be a possibility. Definitely not for certain, but it could happen I suppose.

I just can't wait to hear what firebird has to say. It ought to be pretty entertaining.

 

[kellwolf]

One of the worst kept secrets around is we want some of those DCA slots, and our leadership seems to have been living in DC more than NY lately. Might be unrelated, but it wouldn't surprise me if we're hanging out on the DOJ's doorstep....

 

[skyw82]

One of the worst kept secrets around is we want some of those DCA slots, and our leadership seems to have been living in DC more than NY lately. Might be unrelated, but it wouldn't surprise me if we're hanging out on the DOJ's doorstep....

Yeah I think jetblue would get them as well. When the deal get's passed AA, USairways and Jetblue will all get pay raises because of it.