Do I Really Need My CFI

If anyone asks what I do, Im a construction guy on the I-10 freeway. :)



My '83 lifted K5 Blazer is cool, but I can't get over about 67 mph with it due to the gearing. No speed for me, just some above-average offroad capability. :D

Ahahahahaha, I'm not sure there's anything you can do to those 80s chevies to make them not cool.
 
I'm also like that too, but I decided to suck it up and go for it. Even if I don't make a good CFI, at least I "tried" and got the cert anyway.
 
Funny how your opinions change. At first I pretty sure I didn't want to do it, but now I'm kind of looking forward to it. Still a little hesitant and nervous about doing a good job, but like jspeed said, if you do it and find out you're not very good at it at least you tried and have a few more initials on your certificate.
 
Maybe we should change the word being discussed here... cockiness is bad. Confidence? I don't think confidence is bad. And again, we are making huge assumptions about the OP's character based on a single post. I think it's a little hasty for everybody to immediately start scolding this kid because they said that in their opinion they are a confident pilot.

I think you need to backtrack a little bit here.

The OP, who is a sub 350 hour pilot, said "I know I am a GREAT pilot." I don't think anyone on the board views this as a display of confidence, well except you that is.

I think most on the board viewed it as a statement of arrogance, cockiness, <insert negative attribute>, etc.

As far as making huge assumptions of someone's character from a single post, please grow up. You can often make fairly accurate evaluations of character from a single statement. If I met someone that said "I hate F'in Negros, Jews, and Queers and they should all burn in hell, I don't think summing up the character would be too tough.

Like I said in my earlier post, people here are trying to say him from himself, whether it be via career suicide later down the road, or from flying himself into a hill somewhere because he was such a "Great" pilot. Might be tough love, but we are here to help.
 
I would agree with pretty much all of this some of the time. One thing that CFI-ing does get you is an intimate understanding of the regs and aerodynamics from an academic perspective - CFIs have also flown with a variety of people so they tend to understand how others deal with stress. What they don't have is a lot of "hands-on-yoke" time, a lot of landings from the left seat, or really much experience outside the CFI "bubble." Unless you're the CFI which takes all of their students up into the weather to build them experience, or goes on marginal days, you usually don't do a lot of that. Most of them don't spend a lot of time outside the pattern unless they're in the practice area.

I feel that my time out in the bush, followed by being an FO for 500hrs or so was substantially more valuable than what I would have gotten as a CFI. I flew the airplane, I was down in the weeds, I was shooting approaches, I was either learning on my own or being essentially mentored for the first 1000hrs until I went off on my own. I'd gladly do the same thing over again - though if I could redo it, I'd have gotten the CFI but never used it. I find a lot of guys who were CFIs to be afraid of the wrong things in their first job, and adamant about things that don't matter. A lot of them don't know the limits of their own experience. A lot of them can't turn off the instruction ethos when they should be learning themselves. I don't give a damn how you did it at your flight school, I want you to follow our procedures and practices. I've seen these sorts of guys do a super-duper preflight then miss the write-ups in the can and bitch when they got back about it. I've also seen these guys sweat every ounce of weight on a flight, then procede to take off without any nets up.

The real truth is that these guys are like any other low time, inexperienced guys. Low time and inexperienced. I mad equally stupid mistakes when I was in my first single pilot "PIC" job. Where the CFI has the advantage is in base knowledge, where the other guys have the advantage is in stick and rudder. In the end, early on, its a mostly a wash provided the pilot in question can pull his head out of his ass and be willing to learn. If he's unwilling to learn...well, then voila you have guys without CFIs and guys without stick and rudder time making asses of themselves all over the land.

Sorry for the long quote, but I tried snipping stuff and it just didn't flow in context. Bolding worked a bit better. So...

A good, competent and confident CFI should have a fair amount of "yoke" time. They should be DEMONSTRATING skills to students. They should be able to mimic what a student is doing wrong and then show how the correct way is different. Once you know the "right" way of doing something, it actually takes a lot of skill to do it "wrong" to show a student. A good CFI should be taking their student up in marginal weather, into a variety of airports and flight environments. A good CFI doesn't have a "bubble" because they are training their students for a certificate which will allow them to go out into the world and fly anywhere. Now, the reality is that that involves a lot of pattern work and a lot of maneuvers in the practice area on VFR days, but it shouldn't be limited to just that.

I understand that the reality is, in the current scheme of 141 schools (and even big name 61 flight academies) the pressure is on the CFI to get everything done in the shortest (read: cheapest) amount of time. That means there isn't always time to demo everything multiple times to a student. That means that there isn't always time to go on a long xc to a different sort of airspace/airport etc because instead the procedure is to go to the airport that is exactly 51 miles away, do a touch and go and come back. That's tough. And I agree that a guy that has ONLY instructed in (and I'm just using this as an example) the Riddle environment where they are crosswind restricted and ceiling restricted etc, probably hasn't had the opportunity to be a fully rounded, "good" CFI, through no fault of their own.

Point two... being down in the weeds shooting approaches etc etc... That is certainly a good skill set to have. However, speaking from the 121 side of things (and I don't have the experience to speak to much else), nobody cares about that. We (in general, as long as stuff isn't going terribly wrong) operate so far inside the safety envelope, that none of those things matter. Sure, we shoot approaches down to mins, but that shouldn't take any great set of skills to do. Any instrument student should be able to shoot an approach. Sure, we "fly the plane" (whatever that means) but who DOESN'T fly the plane? Yeah, sure we have autopilot so our hands might not cramp up as often as the guy blasting around in a 206, what's the difference? And what exactly does being down in the weeds mean? I don't even know.

What you learned doing all that is called judgment. It's an amazing skill set to have and one that will most likely keep you alive for the rest of your aviation career. Most CFIs learn judgement the same way. Do I let this student keep going with this landing or do I take the plane and go around? Do we continue out to the practice area to do stalls with that big nasty thunderstorm moving into the area? The dude before me flew the plane for 2 hours so can I go do my 2 hours with my student with out refueling? That's judgment. That's all it is.

In ADDITION to judgment, the CFI is also learning how to interact with a wide variety of people. They are learning CRM at it's most basic level. They are learning different more (and less) effective ways to communicate to people. They are re learning much of what they learned as a commercial student, but at a much deeper level because they have to be able to teach it to somebody else. They are learning how to get along with people and how to deal with people that there just isn't anyway of getting along with.

So, when the dude shows up for his first not entry level job, not only does he have judgment, but he also has really great interpersonal skills. To me, sitting in an RJ where I don't really give a damn about stick and rudder skills, because honestly, the yaw damper takes care of most of the rudder stuff anyway, I'd much rather have somebody sitting next to me who can make good judgments and has great interpersonal skills to explain those judgments to me.

And to be clear, I'm not knocking the guy that was out flying single pilot at night in all kinds of crappy weather. They've got GREAT judgment skills and they can fly an NDB approach like nobody's business (although I don't really care about that because we don't actually do NDB approaches) but if they can't also speak up and explain to me what I'm doing wrong, I don't feel they are very useful in a multi crew environment.
 
Sorry for the long quote, but I tried snipping stuff and it just didn't flow in context. Bolding worked a bit better. So...

A good, competent and confident CFI should have a fair amount of "yoke" time. They should be DEMONSTRATING skills to students. They should be able to mimic what a student is doing wrong and then show how the correct way is different. Once you know the "right" way of doing something, it actually takes a lot of skill to do it "wrong" to show a student. A good CFI should be taking their student up in marginal weather, into a variety of airports and flight environments. A good CFI doesn't have a "bubble" because they are training their students for a certificate which will allow them to go out into the world and fly anywhere. Now, the reality is that that involves a lot of pattern work and a lot of maneuvers in the practice area on VFR days, but it shouldn't be limited to just that.

I understand that the reality is, in the current scheme of 141 schools (and even big name 61 flight academies) the pressure is on the CFI to get everything done in the shortest (read: cheapest) amount of time. That means there isn't always time to demo everything multiple times to a student. That means that there isn't always time to go on a long xc to a different sort of airspace/airport etc because instead the procedure is to go to the airport that is exactly 51 miles away, do a touch and go and come back. That's tough. And I agree that a guy that has ONLY instructed in (and I'm just using this as an example) the Riddle environment where they are crosswind restricted and ceiling restricted etc, probably hasn't had the opportunity to be a fully rounded, "good" CFI, through no fault of their own.

Point two... being down in the weeds shooting approaches etc etc... That is certainly a good skill set to have. However, speaking from the 121 side of things (and I don't have the experience to speak to much else), nobody cares about that. We (in general, as long as stuff isn't going terribly wrong) operate so far inside the safety envelope, that none of those things matter. Sure, we shoot approaches down to mins, but that shouldn't take any great set of skills to do. Any instrument student should be able to shoot an approach. Sure, we "fly the plane" (whatever that means) but who DOESN'T fly the plane? Yeah, sure we have autopilot so our hands might not cramp up as often as the guy blasting around in a 206, what's the difference? And what exactly does being down in the weeds mean? I don't even know.

What you learned doing all that is called judgment. It's an amazing skill set to have and one that will most likely keep you alive for the rest of your aviation career. Most CFIs learn judgement the same way. Do I let this student keep going with this landing or do I take the plane and go around? Do we continue out to the practice area to do stalls with that big nasty thunderstorm moving into the area? The dude before me flew the plane for 2 hours so can I go do my 2 hours with my student with out refueling? That's judgment. That's all it is.

In ADDITION to judgment, the CFI is also learning how to interact with a wide variety of people. They are learning CRM at it's most basic level. They are learning different more (and less) effective ways to communicate to people. They are re learning much of what they learned as a commercial student, but at a much deeper level because they have to be able to teach it to somebody else. They are learning how to get along with people and how to deal with people that there just isn't anyway of getting along with.

So, when the dude shows up for his first not entry level job, not only does he have judgment, but he also has really great interpersonal skills. To me, sitting in an RJ where I don't really give a damn about stick and rudder skills, because honestly, the yaw damper takes care of most of the rudder stuff anyway, I'd much rather have somebody sitting next to me who can make good judgments and has great interpersonal skills to explain those judgments to me.

And to be clear, I'm not knocking the guy that was out flying single pilot at night in all kinds of crappy weather. They've got GREAT judgment skills and they can fly an NDB approach like nobody's business (although I don't really care about that because we don't actually do NDB approaches) but if they can't also speak up and explain to me what I'm doing wrong, I don't feel they are very useful in a multi crew environment.

Exactly what I was trying to say, only better.

Most plane crashes don't happen because of poor stick and rudder skills. They happen because bad decision making or a lack of understanding of what is happening.
 
I really can't understand how someone who does not have a CFI can have a legitimate opinion on this thread. If you have never instructed and not built a career using your CFI, then you cannot know first hand whether it would be beneficial or not to have a CFI.

This!!

Well the guy asked a question... Do I need my CFI. Everyone automatically just piles on the - go get it bandwagon, and the truth actually is - No, you don't. I'm not saying it's bad, or a waste of time or anything, but there's a LOT more than one way to skin this cat. 135 VFR is 500TT. Pt 91 anything is a commercial. Also, saying the a CFI is the only way to build the necessary skills is BS to. I'd put a 135 VFR guy against a 1000 hour cfi who has only done that any day.

So to the OP, if you don't want your CFI or don't want to instruct.... don't. Last thing anyone needs is another CFI only waiting until X will call him not wanting to be there.

In my own defense, I didn't even make a comment as to whether or not he would be better off CFIing or not. My reply was directed at your BS comment regarding the worth of a CFI certificate and the relative skills associated. You are not a CFI, your assessment as to what skills a CFI learns or does not is meaningless.

Would be like me talking to a group of people about how much you don't learn pursuing a PhD!

skydisaster summed it up best in his post. My post is just reiteration.
 
I think you need to backtrack a little bit here.

The OP, who is a sub 350 hour pilot, said "I know I am a GREAT pilot." I don't think anyone on the board views this as a display of confidence, well except you that is.

I think most on the board viewed it as a statement of arrogance, cockiness, <insert negative attribute>, etc.

As far as making huge assumptions of someone's character from a single post, please grow up. You can often make fairly accurate evaluations of character from a single statement. If I met someone that said "I hate F'in Negros, Jews, and Queers and they should all burn in hell, I don't think summing up the character would be too tough.

Like I said in my earlier post, people here are trying to say him from himself, whether it be via career suicide later down the road, or from flying himself into a hill somewhere because he was such a "Great" pilot. Might be tough love, but we are here to help.

woah woah woah. I may have said that confidence isn't a bad thing but I never said his words were IMHO a display of confidence. I was commenting on the fact that so many people were quick to put this kid in his place because of his comment and hastily generalizing his behavior as cockiness when it could be that the individual has confidence within their particular level of experience.

And as far as the analogy is concerned I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. Someone who says I F'in hate negros, jews, queers etc... is as similar a comparison to the OP's comment as flying is to underwater basket weaving.

And to keep my comments on track with MY comments, again: IMO I think that it is a little asinine to jump all over this kid for being cocky/confident (whichever angle you choose to view) and think it is a little excessive for people to get THAT worked up by the OP's comment... on an online forum.
 
Stuff(good stuff however)

I agree, I just don't agree with the OP HAVING to get his CFI cert. I say he should get it as it's another thing that makes him more marketable and well rounded, but by no means does he HAVE to get it and there's certainly nothing wrong with a pilot that doesn't.
 
I agree, I just don't agree with the OP HAVING to get his CFI cert. I say he should get it as it's another thing that makes him more marketable and well rounded, but by no means does he HAVE to get it and there's certainly nothing wrong with a pilot that doesn't.

Agree. If someone doesn't want to, or doesn't have the desire to be, a CFI; then they shouldn't be. They'd be wasting their time and money, as well as everyone else's.

That may change later, who knows? But for now, the OP shouldn't waste the time.

All this is part and parcel from the good things that one can get out of earning their CFI and working as one.
 
Sorry for the long quote, but I tried snipping stuff and it just didn't flow in context. Bolding worked a bit better. So...

A good, competent and confident CFI should have a fair amount of "yoke" time. They should be DEMONSTRATING skills to students. They should be able to mimic what a student is doing wrong and then show how the correct way is different. Once you know the "right" way of doing something, it actually takes a lot of skill to do it "wrong" to show a student. A good CFI should be taking their student up in marginal weather, into a variety of airports and flight environments. A good CFI doesn't have a "bubble" because they are training their students for a certificate which will allow them to go out into the world and fly anywhere. Now, the reality is that that involves a lot of pattern work and a lot of maneuvers in the practice area on VFR days, but it shouldn't be limited to just that.

I understand that the reality is, in the current scheme of 141 schools (and even big name 61 flight academies) the pressure is on the CFI to get everything done in the shortest (read: cheapest) amount of time. That means there isn't always time to demo everything multiple times to a student. That means that there isn't always time to go on a long xc to a different sort of airspace/airport etc because instead the procedure is to go to the airport that is exactly 51 miles away, do a touch and go and come back. That's tough. And I agree that a guy that has ONLY instructed in (and I'm just using this as an example) the Riddle environment where they are crosswind restricted and ceiling restricted etc, probably hasn't had the opportunity to be a fully rounded, "good" CFI, through no fault of their own.

Point two... being down in the weeds shooting approaches etc etc... That is certainly a good skill set to have. However, speaking from the 121 side of things (and I don't have the experience to speak to much else), nobody cares about that. We (in general, as long as stuff isn't going terribly wrong) operate so far inside the safety envelope, that none of those things matter. Sure, we shoot approaches down to mins, but that shouldn't take any great set of skills to do. Any instrument student should be able to shoot an approach. Sure, we "fly the plane" (whatever that means) but who DOESN'T fly the plane? Yeah, sure we have autopilot so our hands might not cramp up as often as the guy blasting around in a 206, what's the difference? And what exactly does being down in the weeds mean? I don't even know.

What you learned doing all that is called judgment. It's an amazing skill set to have and one that will most likely keep you alive for the rest of your aviation career. Most CFIs learn judgement the same way. Do I let this student keep going with this landing or do I take the plane and go around? Do we continue out to the practice area to do stalls with that big nasty thunderstorm moving into the area? The dude before me flew the plane for 2 hours so can I go do my 2 hours with my student with out refueling? That's judgment. That's all it is.

In ADDITION to judgment, the CFI is also learning how to interact with a wide variety of people. They are learning CRM at it's most basic level. They are learning different more (and less) effective ways to communicate to people. They are re learning much of what they learned as a commercial student, but at a much deeper level because they have to be able to teach it to somebody else. They are learning how to get along with people and how to deal with people that there just isn't anyway of getting along with.

So, when the dude shows up for his first not entry level job, not only does he have judgment, but he also has really great interpersonal skills. To me, sitting in an RJ where I don't really give a damn about stick and rudder skills, because honestly, the yaw damper takes care of most of the rudder stuff anyway, I'd much rather have somebody sitting next to me who can make good judgments and has great interpersonal skills to explain those judgments to me.

And to be clear, I'm not knocking the guy that was out flying single pilot at night in all kinds of crappy weather. They've got GREAT judgment skills and they can fly an NDB approach like nobody's business (although I don't really care about that because we don't actually do NDB approaches) but if they can't also speak up and explain to me what I'm doing wrong, I don't feel they are very useful in a multi crew environment.
I agree with all of this actually, perhaps my post wasn't articulate enough (maybe I should've CFId ;-) ) but the reality is reality, and with a few exceptions a lot of the CFI types who've gone straight from instruction to other flying have had a few deficits in areas that. Are incredibly important when operating in a single pilot environment. They also were short low speed flying characteristics - which is something I worry about. Down in the weeds is <1000AGL maneuvering. Being a CFI is good experience, but I don't think it's the best experience in isolation. In reality, in the cloistered environment that many flight schools have there are limitations to what a CFI can learn that will apply to the world of 135. Eventually everyone learns it, but going into the game knowing how to say "no" to your employer and how to exercise operational control is something that sometimes isn't present - not all the time but sometimes. When I started flying in my first PIC 135 gig, there were lots of things I was really weak on - most notably regulations - I had to study my ass off, well to be honest I still do study my ass off, CFIs tend to know those better. It's a balance, but frankly, if I were doing the hiring, I'd rather have the guy who flew banners/pipeline/traffic watch/skydivers than the guy who just instructed. The guy who did both is a rare breed and in terms of overall knowledge, its been my experience that those guys are best to have at 1200hrs. Ymmv naturally, but a variety of experience - something most flight schools don't give you - is worth it's weight in gold.

For the airlines I can't comment, but the level of "I know, I know, I got it," when they don't actually have it was pretty high in CFI guys whove done nothig else. The honest truth is that for all the navel gazing here, there's not a lot we can do about it, but just do the record is set, having instructed from 250 to 1200 hrs does not make you a billy badass pilot, or instantly prepared for commercial operations in the 135 world. Just my observation.
 
Exactly what I was trying to say, only better.

Most plane crashes don't happen because of poor stick and rudder skills. They happen because bad decision making or a lack of understanding of what is happening.

It's been my experience that guys who just instructed lacked a bit of that decision
Making process outside of their comfort zone.
 
I agree, I just don't agree with the OP HAVING to get his CFI cert. I say he should get it as it's another thing that makes him more marketable and well rounded, but by no means does he HAVE to get it and there's certainly nothing wrong with a pilot that doesn't.

I totally agree. No reason to go spend money on something that he doesn't plan on ever using. The reality is, everybody is going to pretty much suck equally at their first gig, be it instructing, survey, DZ ops or whatever. It's how much they are willing to learn during those initial hours that makes the difference down the road.

but the reality is reality, and with a few exceptions a lot of the CFI types who've gone straight from instruction to other flying have had a few deficits in areas that are incredibly important when operating in a single pilot environment.

I'd believe that. But then again so, does somebody who just has a wet commercial. I think starting up in any kind of new operation is going to kick a guys butt. I know if I was to go fly for Ameriflight or something, while I'd certainly be more than qualified (on paper) to go fly a metro or something, it would take a bit of time for me to remember how to fly single pilot in the crap all the time. Also, I'm used to somebody reading a checklist to me and having to do it myself (while flying the plane) would be a learning curve, despite having 6000+ hours of total time.

They also were short low speed flying characteristics - which is something I worry about.

This I don't understand. CFIs (mostly) spend HOURS doing slow flight and short/soft field landings with their students. In fact, that's often a complaint that the "CFI time is useless" crowed often has.

In reality, in the cloistered environment that many flight schools have there are limitations to what a CFI can learn that will apply to the world of 135. Eventually everyone learns it, but going into the game knowing how to say "no" to your employer and how to exercise operational control is something that sometimes isn't present - not all the time but sometimes.

I totally believe this. It's one of my big frustrations with the Academy/Big School route. When I was instructing at ATP it was still something of the wild west, once you got away from JAX. We took students up in crappy weather and gusty winds. We went flying into little high density altitude airports (on hot days). We flew up in the mountains at night. Unfortunately, even there, I don't think that is allowed for too much anymore. There are too many limits put in place in the name of safety, which, as you pointed out, never allow instructors (or students) the opportunity to learn how to say no.

For the airlines I can't comment, but the level of "I know, I know, I got it," when they don't actually have it was pretty high in CFI guys whove done nothig else. The honest truth is that for all the navel gazing here, there's not a lot we can do about it, but just do the record is set, having instructed from 250 to 1200 hrs does not make you a billy badass pilot, or instantly prepared for commercial operations in the 135 world. Just my observation.

I think the "I know I know" comments come from anybody who has too high of an opinion of themselves and then get in over their head. I've seen it from CFIs and I've seen it from survey guys. I've seen it from freight guys and I've seen it from "type rated" (thank you RAA) wet ink commercial guys. Interestingly enough the ONLY people I have never seen it from are ex military guys.

I don't think anybody from 250 hours to 1200 hours is Billy Badass Pilot. My only point is that in general the guys who CFIed from 250 to 1200 hours have better interpersonal skills out of the box which tends to make my life easier because pretty much everybody who is new to this job (RJ Pilot) has no flying skills that directly translate to a swept wing, high speed jet going in and out of REALLY busy airspace.
 
You're almost right BobdDuck. Flying a Chieftain in the the cold misery of Alaska doesn't really translate that well to flying a swept wing jet all that well, but my ability to look out ahead, and see three different outcomes based on the decisions I just made does.

Another great point. I was relating this story to someone recently about a zero flap landing in the sim. At a Vref of 180 knots I still got the simulated jet stopped in 2000'. My partner took 6000' + to stop the same bird in the same zero flap scenario. Why is that?

CFIing is a great way of building hours, not experience.
 
You're almost right BobdDuck. Flying a Chieftain in the the cold misery of Alaska doesn't really translate that well to flying a swept wing jet all that well, but my ability to look out ahead, and see three different outcomes based on the decisions I just made does.

Another great point. I was relating this story to someone recently about a zero flap landing in the sim. At a Vref of 180 knots I still got the simulated jet stopped in 2000'. My partner took 6000' + to stop the same bird in the same zero flap scenario. Why is that?

CFIing is a great way of building hours, not experience.

Who had the higher BTMS readouts? Who was smoother?
 
Mine was by far more aggressive, however the point is that I can put it in tighter...:)
I'm sure the brakes where in the caution range too...
 
Mine was by far more aggressive, however the point is that I can put it in tighter...:)
I'm sure the brakes where in the caution range too...

Right... and a guy with good ADM skills would have been just fine with the 6000 foot landing because he reduced the chance of burning up the brakes, starting a fire and having to evacuate. Nobody gives a crap that you can "put it in tighter" in the sim. We can all do DCA monument races in the sim and brag about our wheels up to wheels down time, but none of that matters in the real world.


EDIT: I don't mean to imply that getting a jet stopped in 2000 feet with a high Vref isn't something to be happy about. But only if the point of the exercise is short field landings.
 
Right... and a guy with good ADM skills would have been just fine with the 6000 foot landing because he reduced the chance of burning up the brakes, starting a fire and having to evacuate. Nobody gives a crap that you can "put it in tighter" in the sim. We can all do DCA monument races in the sim and brag about our wheels up to wheels down time, but none of that matters in the real world.


EDIT: I don't mean to imply that getting a jet stopped in 2000 feet with a high Vref isn't something to be happy about. But only if the point of the exercise is short field landings.

Reminds me of the Ameriflighters that keep flat spotting tires in beech 99s in OMA. Shouldn't even need the brakes at all there. I like to block out and block in in under 2 hours on my line, and shorter taxi times can shave off about 10 minutes, but really, I get paid exactly the same regardless.
 
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