jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Bam.
Do I Really Need My CFI
- Thread starter Cessna310
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rd757
Well-Known Member
^^ This. Thank you, X-Forces!
z987k
Well-Known Member
Yup. How many CFI's do 1000+ mile cross countries either weekly or byweekly in pistons? IFR, VFR, mountains, plains, and you have to do every detail all yourself.
What I'm saying is the guy actually doing what the CFI is training to do is more qualified.
The CFI obviously doesn't do it regularly like a freight dog would, and not in the same conditions normally; but as I said, CFIs can tailor training close to that for XCs, it just wouldn't be as often. The BL is, the two types of jobs are different with different objectives and usually under different circumstances.
It's what one makes of each, to whether it's just routine droning around, or whether they get something out of it. Ive seen freight guys who engage the autopilot post takeoff and sit back reading a book doing nothing in IMC except for answering the radio and monitoring where the plane is going. Definitely different from my freight days way back when.
And too, Ive seen the CFIs who, like you describe, do nothing but drone around the pattern and in the local practice area. Both types are kind of droning around and likely not getting the most out of their flying that they could. Conversely, Ive seen the flip side of both too: "classic" 135 IMC flying like my day....actually hand flying and paying attention; as well as the CFI who takes advantage of getting IMC time on XCs to strange fields, etc.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I didn't read the thread, but I'll give you my 2 cents that have probably already been said anyways and I like the sound of my own keyboard.
I say get your CFI and do a bit of instruction. This builds a SOLID foundation in both knowledge and people skills. People skills especially. You'll fly with all kinds of people in your career, some bad, some so horrible that you'll wonder how in the hell an HR person didn't say "HELL NO" during the interview. Flight instructing is a good safe way to gain some experience in this, given the position of authority that you're in.
Where you go after that is up to you. I have my obnoxiously outspoken opinion on this, but we don't need to get into that here. I will say that the majority of my ADM was developed between aerial survey and 135 freight flying.
Overall a very diverse flying background is a huge plus in my book and flight instructing is definitely not a waste of time.
I say get your CFI and do a bit of instruction. This builds a SOLID foundation in both knowledge and people skills. People skills especially. You'll fly with all kinds of people in your career, some bad, some so horrible that you'll wonder how in the hell an HR person didn't say "HELL NO" during the interview. Flight instructing is a good safe way to gain some experience in this, given the position of authority that you're in.
Where you go after that is up to you. I have my obnoxiously outspoken opinion on this, but we don't need to get into that here. I will say that the majority of my ADM was developed between aerial survey and 135 freight flying.
Overall a very diverse flying background is a huge plus in my book and flight instructing is definitely not a waste of time.
jrh
Well-Known Member
I did.
Well, not quite weekly, but monthly probably. Heck, I'm still doing it--I'll be flying a 172 from Nebraska to Massachusetts this weekend with a student pilot in the left seat, and I'm not even "actively" teaching anymore! I occasionally do these sorts of trips for my previous employer who I spent four years with as....that's right...a CFI.
Not that this has anything to do with predicting one's success in their flying career though.
Former CFI's aren't valued for their mad skillz at flying IFR in pistons. They're valued for things like decision making, judgement, and interpersonal skills. Those are the types of skills that will serve a pilot well no matter what, when, or where they're flying.
You're entitled to any opinion you choose. There are plenty of non-CFIs who built successful careers. But I'm telling you why I believe CFIs, as a whole, are superior to non-CFIs, as a whole, and I'll make my hiring decisions accordingly whenever I'm in a position to do so.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Well the guy asked a question... Do I need my CFI. Everyone automatically just piles on the - go get it bandwagon, and the truth actually is - No, you don't. I'm not saying it's bad, or a waste of time or anything, but there's a LOT more than one way to skin this cat. 135 VFR is 500TT. Pt 91 anything is a commercial. Also, saying the a CFI is the only way to build the necessary skills is BS to. I'd put a 135 VFR guy against a 1000 hour cfi who has only done that any day.
So to the OP, if you don't want your CFI or don't want to instruct.... don't. Last thing anyone needs is another CFI only waiting until X will call him not wanting to be there.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Awe heck, I say 135 freight guy that's flown gliders=gods gift to aviation.
brb, looking for a glider instructor so I can become one of the divineIn addition to your post. Don't flight instruct if you don't want to for the simple fact that your heart won't be in it and this will be a disservice to your students.
z987k
Well-Known Member
I think you might just have a little bit too much of a hard on for freight.Awe heck, I say 135 freight guy that's flown gliders=gods gift to aviation.
In addition to your post. Don't flight instruct if you don't want to for the simple fact that your heart won't be in it and this will be a disservice to your students.
jrh
Well-Known Member
I didn't pile on any bandwagon. I straight up told him he ought to get his CFI certificate because that's what I believe would be best for him.
Sure, there are lots of ways to skin a cat. But the question is, what is the best way?
Until I came to my current employer, I didn't use or need my multi-engine rating. I did a lot of teaching and ferrying in singles and was able to pay my bills just fine. I probably could've gone to a single engine freight operator or charter operator in Alaska, too. Maybe I could've gotten Alpha Flying to hire me and spent the rest of my career flying PC-12s.
So I really didn't *need* to get a multi-engine rating. But would skipping it have been the *best* path for me?
Build skills to do what? In what sort of contest? Maybe a 135 VFR pilot would do better at certain tasks, but over a long term career, my money will still be on the CFI any day.
That's like a doctor saying, "If you want to live a long time, do whatever you want. Eat Cheetos for every meal, smoke a pack a day, and don't bother to exert yourself any more than it takes to grab another Coke out of the fridge."
There is no doubt some people follow this lifestyle and live to a ripe old age. But that doesn't make it good advice.
I might not like eating healthy or exercising, but I figure out a way to work it into my life because I know it's what I need to give myself the best chances in the future.
Don't want to flight instruct? You're right, the last thing the world needs is another pissed off flight instructor. Therefore, I'd recommend an attitude adjustment. Decide it's what you're going to do, and you're going to make the best of it because you know it will give you the best chances for a bright career.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
towpilot2003
Well-Known Member
Finally, got through the whole thread... I'll eco a bit of z987k's post above and add my two cents...
No, you don't need your CFI. I too at 350 hours thought I was a great pilot, I was actually. But that was prior to the all the experience I gained in the next 10,000 hours of my career. I've learned and done a lot of different things in aviation in that time with a grand total of 62.5 dual given in sailplanes. The only reason I got that rating was to make myself more marketable at the glider port I was working at fresh out of high school. SInce then I have let that rating lapse. At 350 hours I didn't have any business teaching because I lacked total experience at that time.
So what's the deal? Go out and do a ton of different things in aviation to broaden your over all experience. Even if it includes a little dual given. I actually liked it. I did everything under the sun except work as a power CFI and I've done just fine with out it. Go get some more rounded experience that may or may not include instructing. I've seen a ton of low time carbon copy CFI's that couldn't fly their way out of a paper bag because CFI work is all they've done. The art of teaching students to fly by the seat of their pants by learning to let the machine talk to them is all but gone in most cases.
Now, I'm at a point where I think I'd like to get my CFI to do some private pilot's, BFR's and tailwheel endorsements. Just for fun and to maybe help some friends and family out along the way. It is actually fun when you don't really need to do it, but I don't see how it's the end all to everything in aviation.
I too was once like yourself, I've looked back and thought to myself what a little tool I was for not knowing what I know now. The whole reason for this website is for situations just like this. If you're going to put a post on here asking for advice, i'd actually be trying to seek advice. If you don't want to instruct then don't. Regardless of what you want to do in aviation you're going to have to man up, get down and dirty in the books, and learn to be humble along the way.
No, you don't need your CFI. I too at 350 hours thought I was a great pilot, I was actually. But that was prior to the all the experience I gained in the next 10,000 hours of my career. I've learned and done a lot of different things in aviation in that time with a grand total of 62.5 dual given in sailplanes. The only reason I got that rating was to make myself more marketable at the glider port I was working at fresh out of high school. SInce then I have let that rating lapse. At 350 hours I didn't have any business teaching because I lacked total experience at that time.
So what's the deal? Go out and do a ton of different things in aviation to broaden your over all experience. Even if it includes a little dual given. I actually liked it. I did everything under the sun except work as a power CFI and I've done just fine with out it. Go get some more rounded experience that may or may not include instructing. I've seen a ton of low time carbon copy CFI's that couldn't fly their way out of a paper bag because CFI work is all they've done. The art of teaching students to fly by the seat of their pants by learning to let the machine talk to them is all but gone in most cases.
Now, I'm at a point where I think I'd like to get my CFI to do some private pilot's, BFR's and tailwheel endorsements. Just for fun and to maybe help some friends and family out along the way. It is actually fun when you don't really need to do it, but I don't see how it's the end all to everything in aviation.
I too was once like yourself, I've looked back and thought to myself what a little tool I was for not knowing what I know now. The whole reason for this website is for situations just like this. If you're going to put a post on here asking for advice, i'd actually be trying to seek advice. If you don't want to instruct then don't. Regardless of what you want to do in aviation you're going to have to man up, get down and dirty in the books, and learn to be humble along the way.
z987k
Well-Known Member
I still don't want my CFI. Well I don't want to spend money on something that will have about 0 return. 10k hours from now... maybe even before.... I bet money I'll get it... for fun.
Like towpilot said, at that point I might actually have the experience to competently teach someone to fly. Because lets be honest... the stupid teaching the mentally handicapped? It's not the most ideal situation... but it is, for the most part what we've got.
Like towpilot said, at that point I might actually have the experience to competently teach someone to fly. Because lets be honest... the stupid teaching the mentally handicapped? It's not the most ideal situation... but it is, for the most part what we've got.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Teaching, just like anything else, you only get out of it what you put into it. There are a lot of worthless CFIs out there. Not by coincidence they usually turn into worthless pilots. Fortunately, there also a lot of good CFIs. More than likely, they'll make good pilots.
For various flying jobs I've had other than teaching, I could always tell the training pilots who were CFIs and those who weren't. Bottom line is, if you don't teach there is a lot you miss out on. Those who do teach, will likely move on and do the same things as those who decided not to teach... You all end up in the same pile eventually. Each path has its own unique challenges and everyone wants to brag about how difficult THEIR job is....I'll tell you what. You're a professional commercial pilot, if you've been at your job for any length of time and its still difficult, you probably aren't very good at it.
Things I did while a full time CFI...
-Got my MEI & CFI-I
-Taught in Cirriussesssss (first time I saw glass)
-Got a tailwheel endorsement and started teaching it
-Worked for flight schools and as an independent with multiple repeat clients at over 6 airports
-Went through Rich Stowell's Emergency Maneuver Training Course, then decided I wanted to teach that too...
-Arranged fly-in camping trips in the mountains! Oh noez!
-Got to teach a primary student in a Scout out of his own 800ft dirt strip.
-Ferried airplanes across the country on the side
-Flew a BE36TC pt 91 on the side for a water engineering company
-Took the ATP written
-Flew single pilot IFR pt 135 in an A36 for PAX charter (that got me my SE ATP)
-Started teaching competition aerobatics, coaching and flying contests
-Did my ME ATP ride on my own (got tired of waiting)
-Got my ACE card to fly Airshows
-During a span of about 5 1/2 years I got to fly over 55 different types of airplanes
-Only thing I regret is not completing is my Master-CFI Aerobatic...
Just think, I actualy wanted to go fly VFR cargo for Ameriflight back when they had their Lances and avoid teaching like the plague....
For various flying jobs I've had other than teaching, I could always tell the training pilots who were CFIs and those who weren't. Bottom line is, if you don't teach there is a lot you miss out on. Those who do teach, will likely move on and do the same things as those who decided not to teach... You all end up in the same pile eventually. Each path has its own unique challenges and everyone wants to brag about how difficult THEIR job is....I'll tell you what. You're a professional commercial pilot, if you've been at your job for any length of time and its still difficult, you probably aren't very good at it.
Things I did while a full time CFI...
-Got my MEI & CFI-I
-Taught in Cirriussesssss (first time I saw glass)
-Got a tailwheel endorsement and started teaching it
-Worked for flight schools and as an independent with multiple repeat clients at over 6 airports
-Went through Rich Stowell's Emergency Maneuver Training Course, then decided I wanted to teach that too...
-Arranged fly-in camping trips in the mountains! Oh noez!
-Got to teach a primary student in a Scout out of his own 800ft dirt strip.
-Ferried airplanes across the country on the side
-Flew a BE36TC pt 91 on the side for a water engineering company
-Took the ATP written
-Flew single pilot IFR pt 135 in an A36 for PAX charter (that got me my SE ATP)
-Started teaching competition aerobatics, coaching and flying contests
-Did my ME ATP ride on my own (got tired of waiting)
-Got my ACE card to fly Airshows
-During a span of about 5 1/2 years I got to fly over 55 different types of airplanes
-Only thing I regret is not completing is my Master-CFI Aerobatic...
Just think, I actualy wanted to go fly VFR cargo for Ameriflight back when they had their Lances and avoid teaching like the plague....
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Sounds like a dream come true! Just plan, jump in the plane & go!
No real explanations or preparation, no student showing up for the trip not prepared, no babysitting, no having to be personable when you really don't want to interact with anyone, nobody letting the airplane dutch roll or over-exaggerating every bit of turbulence, no having to let the student make the bad decisions first so they can learn from them while you quietly keep reassessing the situation in your head to see just how far you should take it, no having to set a good example....
p1l07m4n
SF340 Pirate, First Mate
Where I teach, I do it all the time (well not the 1000+ mile cross countries at least too many times
, and we don't really have too may plains out here). It is nice not doing every detail yourself, but you have to watch and check your student's work like an OCD hawk. They will constantly make mistakes (all part of the learning process), and you have to catch them. It's both of your butts on the line. While I can still bust out a cross country flight plan, being able to check and double check someone else's work, and sort out problems is always an exciting part of the CFI game. Like many others have said, the CFI game is an exciting one. Student's performance changes so much as you work with them. Some days they're on point, others not so much. You never really know what to expect, and can never turn your back on them. This is why I love my job! It truly is a fun and rewarding experience.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Not that it really is a necessity anymore, but it would be interesting to see how many working Commercial pilots who didn't teach could actually whip out a VFR or IFR nav log with just a chart, pencil, E6B & plotter. In a timely manner and actually be able to use it.
skydisaster
Well-Known Member
I really can't understand how someone who does not have a CFI can have a legitimate opinion on this thread. If you have never instructed and not built a career using your CFI, then you cannot know first hand whether it would be beneficial or not to have a CFI.
rwgb1984
Well-Known Member
Haven't read every page of this thread but I do think we've all beat the horse to DEATH when it comes to the "great pilot" comment. First, how is anyone in any position to make a character evaluation of the OP based on a single post? And second, a little confidence never hurt anyone, especially an airman. It's not our jobs to "put people in their place." Just my $0.02...