Dallas Executive Mid-Air / B-17 - P-63

Don't know what it is about pilots. Someone gets killed and others are looking to place blame.

Put 100 JC members in P-63 simulator (I know) and I'll bet most would have the same outcome. We like to think we're smarter than all other pilots but it just isn't true.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I’ll speculate a bit, I don’t think Milton looked where he was going before he backed into the street.

Click to expand...

The problem with speculating is you often get basic facts wrong. Milton burned the place to the ground and was last seen sipping drinks at a resort in the Carribean.
Tom Smykowski is the character featured in your clip. You started off with false information, much like many do when speculating.
 
Tiptank said:
The problem with speculating is you often get basic facts wrong. Milton burned the place to the ground and was last seen sipping drinks at a resort in the Carribean.
Tom Smykowski is the character featured in your clip. You started off with false information, much like many do when speculating.
Click to expand...

Damn, I knew Milton was staple guy.

That said, I’m a little more confident about my speculation about this incident.
 
fholbert said:
Put 100 JC members in P-63 simulator (I know) and I'll bet most would have the same outcome. We like to think we're smarter than all other pilots but it just isn't true.
Click to expand...

That’s because out of those 100, maybe 2 of them would actually be qualified, and 1 proficient, to engage in this endeavor. And that’s the whole point: a bunch of people are doing this stuff who shouldn’t be.

Skåning said:
He’s on the master scab list
Click to expand...

Good riddance to him, then.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
You’re not wrong. But I’ve said something similar in the past when innocent bystanders were killed, and you’d have thought I murdered the first born child of everyone on the forum based on their reaction. :rolleyes:

Amateurs doing complicated formation flying is insanity. The Blue Angels is one thing. It serves an actual national purpose for recruiting, and they spend all of their time training and preparing for shows. But when amateurs who occasionally do shows on weekends are involved, it’s very difficult for me to justify the risk. Six families lost someone and a crowd was traumatized. And for what? Nothing of real purpose. I find it tragic. And yes, @Boris Badenov, using your strict definition of tragedy.
Click to expand...
I've said the same thing as well. Too many accidents, too many "amateurs". I tried doing a formation flight with a 172 15 years ago and that was scary enough for me. Never tried it again. Airshows should be static displays and the blue angels and thats it. It's always some old war bird accident with the same reaction from everyone.
 
DropTank said:
Alright, fair enough.
I take responsibility for the over reaction and I apologize.

(at least we both have intentions to prevent additional body bags)
Click to expand...
Bob Ridpath said:
Thank you for being gracious. I appreciate that more than you might imagine.
Click to expand...
Would be nice if all disagreements and differences of opinions here could be handled like this…….
 
Pilot Fighter said:
There’s a bunch of bright folks on here, a number of which have participated in accident investigations.

There’s really only a couple of interesting questions that need to be answered.

I’m betting the investigation will find the following:

- The show plan failed to establish adequate safeguards to maintain separation.

Perhaps there were other radio frequencies in use but I haven’t heard calls to suggest that bombers were to be cleared for their approach only after the fighter fly-by was completed.

- The P-63 pilot, knowing that fighter and bomber parades shared the approximate fly-by path, failed to establish position of the lead B-17. Even if the plan provided for lateral separation between the fighter and bomber fly-by paths, the issues of timing and consequences of the fighters overshooting weren’t adequately considered.

I’m also willing to bet that participants voiced few objections to the plan.

Pilots speculate and often get things right.
Click to expand...

I'll agree with all except part of your dash 3.

I'll bet the cobra was sucked and laterally out of position (quite an accomplishment in a a a loose trail "formation"). I'll bet he was instructed to assume lead despite his rather unwieldly and somewhat blind position relative to his gaggle and additional traffic over the runway. And - my main detraction from your otherwise spot on analysis - I'll bet "the issues of timing and consequences of the fighters overshooting weren’t adequately considered" discussed at all during the briefing. I'll further bet that in a nepotism- and good ol' boy-based hierarchy, anybody who raised his hand in the questions portion of the brief would get iced from the flight line most ricki tick... and, therefore, no hands were raised.

I'll add a dash 4 question to be answered... What will the FAA say about what they had to say that day about the briefing?
 
Last edited:
As to should we airshow or should we not?... and should we formation or should we not?... Hell, should we fly or should we not? Should we walk across the street or not? Should we build streets or not?

From a risk standpoint, aviation is no different from any other human endeavor. That said, please understand that the vast majority of human endeavor is completely unconsidered, whack and malignant.

Still, whatever their distraction du jour, it's typically the humans who create the risks - not the activities themselves.

Humans need to be adapted to and prepared for the activities in which they engage. Through intention of will or mindless desire... through precise or inept planning, through planning at all or no planning at all, attentiveness or inattentiveness, greed or consideration, stupidity or intelligence, skill or lack of skill, ego or interest... humans can and do prevail occassionally. But we fail far more often because all the preceding decision trees typically have no roots and no branches.

And then the apathetic bystanders justify our indolence with catchy phrases like, "planning is communist"... again with NO FREAKING IDEA of what planning or communism actually are.

I LOVE "high risk" activities... They cull the herd more equitably and efficiently than any others. Which is to say, I love activities in which a lack of preparation, thought, and competence are rewarded with quick disposition.
 
Last edited:
form810 said:
I'll bet he was instructed to assume lead …
Click to expand...

More speculation, but …

That radio call bothers the hell out of me. It sounds like an acknowledgment that things hadn’t gone as planned. It sounds like an acknowledgment that the P-63 was late to party.

I wonder what the contingency for late arrival was. I would expect the plan would include a decision point prior to turning final. If arriving late or loss of visibility of bomber lead, yada yada yada.

Should the air boss be directing traffic at that point? What could the air boss actually see from his vantage point?

If I had been the Big D of the show, I would have inserted a big time interval between fighter and bomber parades with the bombers not turning final until fighter parade was complete.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
More speculation, but …

That radio call bothers the hell out of me. It sounds like an acknowledgment that things hadn’t gone as planned. It sounds like an acknowledgment that the P-63 was late to party.

I wonder what the contingency for late arrival was. I would expect the plan would include a decision point prior to turning final. If arriving late or loss of visibility of bomber lead, yada yada yada.

Should the air boss be directing traffic at that point? What could the air boss actually see from his vantage point?

If I had been the Big D of the show, I would have inserted a big time interval between fighter and bomber parades with the bombers not turning final until fighter parade was complete.
Click to expand...

Everything you just said is important and relevant. Also, everything you just said was NOT briefed.

And just BTW, that's not "Big D", but "BSD" to you. Which is extremely appropo when using verbs like "insert".

More seriously and importantly, regardless of what you... or I... would have done, what it appears NOBODY did was in any way to brief any of these potential contingencies. Small brains make for big "accidents". PPPPPPP.... Navy still using 7P?
 
Last edited:
After a working lifetime in emergency services, I'd suggest the same is true (to a far greater degree) in a LOT of human endeavor, from driving a car to boating to hunting/fishing and even things like home repair ("ladder? I don't need no stinking ladder - this wobbly table is good enough.")

I don't have particular statistics but am guessing that air shows, whether they include formation flying, old warbirds, or whatever else, have FAR less casualties and are much less significant statistically than many everyday activities in which many people participate and which they enjoy.

That doesn't mitigate the tragedy of this loss, certainly. For me, at least, it suggests that there may be ways to "tighten" things up in the process (much like defensive driving courses) to increase the margin of safety.

Ultimately, though (and with respect to those who think otherwise), this seems a bit of an outlier (yes, even in TOTAL over the years) compared to the number of people who fall to home accidents from carelessness, choking on food because they're in a hurry, and/or casual/distracted/drunk driving (or just being untrained/un equipped to drive in snow/rain/poor road conditions).

IDK, just my two-cents - understanding that some/many will disagree. Sadly, the safety of aviation has been written in blood o'er the decades, perhaps less so in other areas which are far more routine and integrated into daily life (rather than special events like this).

We're always going to find ways to kill ourselves, be it through lack of training, awareness, ignorance, or whatever; and that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve from my perspective. I just don't understand the call to shutdown airshows (pros have had challenges, too, as I recall Rammstein and others) because occasionally - even rarely - something "goes wrong."
 
Bob Ridpath said:
I don't have particular statistics but am guessing that air shows, whether they include formation flying, old warbirds, or whatever else, have FAR less casualties and are much less significant statistically than many everyday activities in which many people participate and which they enjoy.
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that. Due to the very low number of shows, combined with the number of accidents we’re all aware of from discussions here, this is a very high accident rate per show. And I’m sure there are other accidents we haven’t even discussed here. Something like motorcycling is considered a risky endeavor, but it has an accident rate roughly the same as general aviation. Air show accidents far exceed that rate.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
I seriously doubt that. Due to the very low number of shows, combined with the number of accidents we’re all aware of from discussions here, this is a very high accident rate per show. And I’m sure there are other accidents we haven’t even discussed here. Something like motorcycling is considered a risky endeavor, but it has an accident rate roughly the same as general aviation. Air show accidents far exceed that rate.
Click to expand...

Here are my stats. I’m estimating that I’ve attended 100 shows. There was one year that I attended 18 shows. I’ve witnessed 5 fatal accidents.

Correction: I’ve witnessed 5 accidents, 4 fatal.


1990 - Baltimore
Pitts S-2B

1993 - Bloomington
Pitts Special

1997 - Baltimore
F-117 (safely ejected)

2011 - Martinsburg
T-28

2016 - Smyrna
F/A-18 (practice, not airshow)
 
Last edited:
Pilot Fighter said:
Here are my stats. I’m estimating that I’ve attended 100 shows. There was one year that I attended 18 shows. I’ve witnessed 5 fatal accidents.

Correction: I’ve witnessed 5 accidents, 4 fatal.


1990 - Baltimore
Pitts S-2B

1993 - Bloomington
Pitts Special

1997 - Baltimore
F-117 (safely ejected)

2011 - Martinsburg
T-28

2016 - Smyrna
F/A-18 (practice, not airshow)
Click to expand...

was on site for the 1993 MCAS El Toro F-86 crash, the 1994 Phoenix 500 Corsair crash, and the 1997 MCAS Yuma airshow flyby crash into the runway.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top