Dallas Executive Mid-Air / B-17 - P-63

MikeD said:
here’s the three



Click to expand...
I was there for the Corsair incident, it got really quiet on the ramp, I was watching from the roof of our trailer. As I recall when the fire started he pulled up and deployed whatever onboard fire suppression he had and it looked like it was out. And then it came back even stronger, I remember hearing people yelling from the ground "Get out!". It was my first air race after spending a couple of years helping to put the Rare Bear back together. At least no one died.
 
I know it's not a competition - honestly. Still, in my nearly 40 years of responding to emergency scenes personally (not counting the 15 years of pre-arrival instruction given to callers at 911), I've been involved with an ungodly number of fatals - from car accidents to fires to suicides to choking deaths to those who died in falls - I can't remember the total (or choose not to) but it certainly is close to 85 or 90 people in total. And that's just my experience in a single jurisdiction.

I've cut them from crushed cars, bagged them after fires, cut them down after hangings - even buried some of them as a pastor and tried to comfort their surviving loved ones after the event itself.

Statistics clearly aren't my strong suit. I imagine I'm comparing the number of fatal air show accidents to the overall total I've known from generally ordinary and daily activities throughout the years.

IDK .. Honestly, I still don't understand the desire or need to shut-down the events.
 
knot4u said:
Click to expand...

When I read this, my initial thought was that the spectators must have been on the west side of 31, as that would have the fighter and bomber paths not intersecting. I took a look at the airshow map and saw that the spectators were, in fact, on the terminal side, the east side.

Not sure what the briefed plan was but the air boss instructed the fighters to fly the 500ft show-line and the bombers to fly the 1000ft show-line. This means the lateral separation, as directed, was -500ft, the fighters were instructed to cross the bomber path.

If this is correct, the P-63 was supposed to overshoot the intended bomber path and it was a timing issue. In my earlier comments I emphasized that I didn’t believe that the bombers should have been cleared until it was verified that fighter fly-by was completed. I’m more emphatic now that I know that intersecting paths might have been planned.

Somebody check my work.
 
Last edited:
Pilot Fighter said:
When I read this, my initial thought was that the spectators must have been on the west side of 31, as that would have the fighter and bomber paths not intersecting. I took a look at the airshow map and saw that the spectators were, in fact, on the terminal side, the east side.

Not sure what the briefed plan was but the air boss instructed the fighters to fly the 500ft show-line and the bombers to fly the 1000ft show-line. This means the lateral separation, as directed, was -500ft, the fighters were instructed to cross the bomber path.

If this is correct, the P-63 was supposed to overshoot the intended bomber path and it was a timing issue. In my earlier comments I emphasized that I didn’t believe that the bombers should have been cleared until it was verified that fighter fly-by was completed. I’m more emphatic now that I know that intersecting paths might have been planned.

Somebody check my work.
Click to expand...
I agree, I'm not sure why the air boss told the fighters to cross the bombers path, especially considering there was no altitude separation briefed. Hopefully this might give the P-63 pilots family some posthumous vindication versus a lot of people who've been very quick to place blame. The whole situation seems so sad and easily avoidable in hindsight, but I think that's probably true of just about any negative event.
 
Last edited:
Though I do wonder which line the bombers and fighters had been flying up until that point, the fighters should have been on the outside of that left turn coming into show center, why were they inside of the bombers to begin with?
 
I believe the fighters could be cleared in to fill gaps in the bomber line, if the bombers get strung out. Regardless of what the air boss cleared or not, this is:

1. Daytime VMC, clear and a million.
2. Known players……everyone knows how many and who the bombers and the fighters are. This wasn’t some unknown non-participating aircraft that randomly wandered into the formation.
3. Regardless of instructions given, all aircraft are responsible for clearing their own flightpath; and if moving into someone else’s altitude block or horizontal sector, responsible for having SA on where all the players are in that block/sector you are about to enter. If you don’t have that SA or you lose that SA, remain in your own block/sector until you (re)gain that SA. This is graduate level formation ops 201 here.
 
MikeD said:
I believe the fighters could be cleared in to fill gaps in the bomber line, if the bombers get strung out. Regardless of what the air boss cleared or not, this is:

1. Daytime VMC, clear and a million.
2. Known players……everyone knows how many and who the bombers and the fighters are. This wasn’t some unknown non-participating aircraft that randomly wandered into the formation.
3. Regardless of instructions given, all aircraft are responsible for clearing their own flightpath; and if moving into someone else’s altitude block or horizontal sector, responsible for having SA on where all the players are in that block/sector you are about to enter. If you don’t have that SA or you lose that SA, remain in your own block/sector until you (re)gain that SA. This is graduate level formation ops 201 here.
Click to expand...

All true, but it helps to start out with a good plan.
 
fholbert said:
The first Zero brought back to the US took some damage attacking Dutch Harbor, tried to do an off airport landing on one of Aleutian Islands. The pilot was killed in the landing.

The Zero was taken to North Island (San Diego), repaired and test flown. The AAC was surprised to find out two big flaws in the Zero.
  • The Zero turned left like a ricochet, but turned right like a 707.
  • The ailerons washed out above 200 knots.
US pilots were told when a Zero was on their tail to dive and turn right. Almost immediately the Zero kill went up.

A really good read on the Zero. The capture of this Zero was equal to the US capturing the Enigma Machine. Both really changed the war.

Koga's Zero: The Fighter That Changed World War II : Found in Alaska: Rearden, Jim: 9780929521565: Amazon.com: Arts, Crafts & Sewing

Koga's Zero: The Fighter That Changed World War II : Found in Alaska [Rearden, Jim] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Koga's Zero: The Fighter That Changed World War II : Found in Alaska
www.amazon.com

View attachment 67831
Click to expand...
This months event at Chino.

1670028910142.png

Hangar Talk and Flying Demo of the Mitsubishi A6M5 Zero | Planes of Fame Air Museum

​
​

Flying Demo at 12:15pm – featuring the rare Mitsubishi A6M5 "Zero"
When the Pacific War erupted in December 1941, the one aircraft that was most feared and the most formidable was the Imperial Japanese Navy's Mitsubishi A6M "Zero." The Zero ruled the skies throughout the early years of the conflict.
It was fast, it was agile, it packed a punch, and it could fly long distances - giving it air supremacy over anything the allied nations could put up against it.
That would change in 1943 with the arrival of faster and more powerful fighter aircraft such as the Grumman F6F "Hellcat" and the Vought F4U "Corsair," but even in its later versions, such as the A6M5, the "Zero" was still a dangerous and formidable foe.
The Museum's aircraft is a World War II combat veteran and is the only authentic version of a Japanese "Zero" fighter still flying with its original engine! This rare aircraft will take to the sky as part of our Flying Demo for Saturday, December 3, 2022.
Following a short presentation by Museum Guide David Willis at 12:15, Pilot John Maloney will start the Nakajima Sakae radial engine and you'll hear (and feel) the 1,130 horses of the engine give way. John will then taxi away, David will host our Members Only Raffle Drawing, and then John will fly over the Museum in the Zero for 20 minutes. Upon his return, guests will be able to ask questions and find out more about this very special aircraft!
Discover the History of the Museum's A6M5 "Zero"
Over 11,000 A6M "Zero" aircraft were built by both Mitsubishi and Nakajima during World War II. Today, only five still fly and the Museum's is the only authentic example still flying with its original Nakajima Sakae radial engine.

Ken Saltgaver of the Museum will tell the fascinating history of this aircraft and its travels and remarkable survival. Ken will relate the journey of the aircraft's restoration and return to flight as well as its roles in several key motion pictures.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
All true, but it helps to start out with a good plan.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. But regardless, the first rule and handshake of any formation flight, is “I won’t hit you, and you don’t hit me.”

The lack of a good plan is contributory, not primary. Failure to follow the above, is primary, with a lot of supporting reasons of things the P-63 pilot didn’t do, that helped it.

We went back to basics about two decades ago in a similar vein with regards to 2 v 1 air to air, and the concept of engaged vs supporting fighter, with regards to the blue 2-ship.
 
MikeD said:
Absolutely. But regardless, the first rule and handshake of any formation flight, is “I won’t hit you, and you don’t hit me.”

The lack of a good plan is contributory, not primary. Failure to follow the above, is primary, with a lot of supporting reasons of things the P-63 pilot didn’t do, that helped it.

We went back to basics about two decades ago in a similar vein with regards to 2 v 1 air to air, and the concept of engaged vs supporting fighter, with regards to the blue 2-ship.
Click to expand...
"Don't you leave me Mav!"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

MikeD
Evergreen Air Center at KMZJ sold
Replies
8
Views
6K
RDoug
RDoug
mjg407
NTSB Mishap Report P-2 Airtanker Crash Stead
Replies
16
Views
5K
mjg407
mjg407
derg
The "John Ley" Update
Replies
4
Views
5K
Cruise
Cruise
Back
Top