Buzo
Well-Known Member
I have to get the FCTM out everytime I start an engine, it is so rare.
Cross bleed starts
- Thread starter jrh
- Start date
I have to get the FCTM out everytime I start an engine, it is so rare.
Soul Brotha'
Off to go do Black guy stuff
Done it in JFK. Don't even know who you are carrying but know what business you guys are in.If you knew who we were carrying, you'd give way.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
You are correct. You can battery start the 727 with an air start cart but all the bleeds must have been open prior to shutdown as they are AC valves. That is why on the parking checklist it is confirmed that all 4 engine bleed valves are open. You also confirm the the quality of the start cart before you shut down number 3. I've been to a couple of places that claim to have a start cart only to find it hasn't been run in months and won't start.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
"This one time, in Mexico..."
Never ever ever go down there without an inoperative APU.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Don't get me started I did an entire rotation with NO APU and all mexico trips in summer. It sucked, big time. We had an 8 hour freight delay and wasted about 8000 lbs of fuel just keeping number three running. Then their is the whole refueling issue as you can't open the refuel valves when on an engine gen without using a PITA Special Procedure...
On a side note, it is always fun to have a jumpseater new to the 727 ride along. They usually can't believe the fuel flow on take off is 30,000 to 36000 pph
On a side note, it is always fun to have a jumpseater new to the 727 ride along. They usually can't believe the fuel flow on take off is 30,000 to 36000 pph
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
It was messy enough on the jungle jet—I believe you!
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
But you guys have a different kind of fuel budget. Airlines are trying to reduce the amount used.
Springer
Well-Known Member
The AF stockpiled a bunch of carts in Europe and we would occasionally do a cart start in the F-4. Never really liked doing them as we flew with a center line tank under the fuselage and the hot exhaust from the cart was deflected away from the tank by a small door. If the door failed theoretically I could become a crispy critter.
I believe the Thunderbirds, when they flew the F-4, did cart starts as it was more dramatic.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Either method uses a pretty negligible amount of fuel for us. I only need the APU to be turning for about 2 minutes to get both motors online. Not sure if this is different with the fat kids
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Whereas, with the military, "if you don't burn the fuel budget, you lose it."
///AMG
Well-Known Member
More specifically it's flight hours, but I guess you could construe that to equate to fuel. It's a bit more complicated than that what you quoted, but in general terms, the flight hours we don't burn each quarter are theoretically not given back at certain times of future deployment/workup cycles. The fuel stuff is just too hard to plan for though.......recovering at the boat, in flight emergencies, etc etc all equate to artificially using fuel faster than planned. Or you can stretch fuel a lot farther to make up hours for Ops. Bunch of factors play into it, but suffice to say, there are too many unknowns to really plan anything around fuel usage. If that makes any sense......clear as mud probably
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
The use it or lose it mentality is what is wrong with the gov't. If you were responsible you should be able to " bank it" for future use or "trade it" for other items you may need...
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
I don't think the "use it or lose it mentality" truly exists and is just something line pilots/soldiers/sailors, etc say as common knowledge and is passed around from person to person without the involvement of a budget/fuel/flight hours manager.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I don't know how it is with the Army side, but this is definitely a front office concern in every squadron I know of. It isn't "use it or lose it", but the mandate is "you will use your hours". And this becomes Ops concern, and thus everyone's concern. Generally speaking, we are able to get training out of the unusual amount of hours we sometimes have to fly. The ones it really burns are the guys and gals downstairs trying to keep the jets up. Especially the night shift folks who have to fix everything after we land late at night. It also is noticeable on flights like my fri afternoon hop, where we basically had to knock it off after 2 BFM sets and just hold at 230 kts for 30 mins to both log a 1.0 as scheduled.
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
"You will use your hours" - absolutely. I am the flying hour manager and ops officer for my state. I forecast, request, manage, and execute all flying hours in the state with exception of FW aircraft. The reason I enforce the "you will use your hours" mentality is purely for training purposes. I don't want my crews sitting on their butts - I want them prepping for war.
However, as you well know, weather, maintenance, crew mix and availability, and a whole bunch of other crap have to be balanced into the complex flight hours equation. I also don't have to deal with the limited time you get off a bag of gas like you do in your jet. I generally send guys off on 2.0s and they get plenty of training in that time and come back 0.8 in the tanks. This year due to things to in depth to get into here, I turned in a few hundred CH-47 hours we couldn't fly and traded them for UH-60 hours from an under-performing state.
If I don't execute my allotted flight hours for the FY, I don't lose them the next. I would be admonished for not forecasting better and for not turning those hours over to another state. This year (ending in 2 weeks) I'm going to hit about a 99% execution on the nose. Four weeks ago I projected a 101.5% execution rate and then crap happened I couldn't control.
And to tell you the truth, during the last month of the FY I can't realistically turn in hours because it's unlikely other states could use them at this point so I'm way more likely to be "that" Opso who doesn't care what you do with the aircraft and to just log the damn time.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Yeah sounds like a similar deal for you guys as well. Like I said, I think we're pretty good at getting training out of those hours, but I've seen it get down to crunch time where wx impedes a useful mission, and dudes just launch and go hold for an hour or so. I agree with you on using the hours you have to train for the mission, but unfortunately due to some factors out of our control, sometimes it simply comes down to burning hours for ops.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I can tell you it absolutely used to be true up until about 5 years ago. If you've ever worked in Wing Programming in the OG or the OSS, you'd know it is a legitimate threat. Remember, line pilots have zero to do with flying hour programs; SQ/CCs and DOs are simply doing the bidding of the OGs and Wing/CCs. It is those Wing Kings and OGs that are involved in the yearly negotiations of those flying hours.
Now, it's interesting -- wings are "selling back" unused programmed flight hours, and the HQs are loving it because of the fuel budget savings. Guess what...subsequent years flight hours ARE being reduced following those turn-ins, but the operational units just don't have the people or iron to be able to have used those 'lost' hours anyhow. Pretty sad state of affairs.
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
Guess you didn't see my next post (#75)?
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
No, I didn't. None the less, your situation is a little different.
I can tell you, though, that it definitely used to be true for active duty USAF.
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
Yeah - I was just describing my small piece of the military aviation pie.
