Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

That’s not just flying. That is every job in the modern age. Look at sports. Instead of just enjoying the skill of a particular player, it’s all broken down into analytics. This stat, that stat. We can’t just eat a hot dog and appreciate the artistry of the game.

I think happiness is ignoring the art critics and enjoy being an artist.

For me it wasn’t that. The straw that broke the camels back was around 2020 when I saw NBA players wearing shirts that said “I can’t breathe” or “stop choking me.”

I wondered, who is squishing your multi-million dollar necks?

That was the last I watched the NBA. I’m just a simple guy who appreciates sports for sports. The second you start making it political, I lose interest. Some lines shouldn’t be crossed. And hatred of police has no room in a sporting event.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

For me it wasn’t that. The straw that broke the camels back was around 2020 when I saw NBA players wearing shirts that said “I can’t breathe” or “stop choking me.”

I wondered, who is squishing your multi-million dollar necks?

That was the last I watched the NBA. I’m just a simple guy who appreciates sports for sports. The second you start making it political, I lose interest. Some lines shouldn’t be crossed. And hatred of police has no room in a sporting event.

Phoenix police routinely used excessive force and violated civil rights, DOJ says

A sweeping new report from the Justice Department reveals a pattern of racism and excessive force at the Phoenix Police Department. The three-year probe followed a series of high-profile incidents of misconduct and one of the highest rates of officer-involved shootings in the country. Amna Nawaz...

www.pbs.org

Maybe they were supporting issues that directly affect their people. The above is just one reported case nationally. I think it can be an important conversation to have.

Also thread creep has occurred and some of these non-sequitur post should be removed into their own thread.

 

[jhugz]

Eh, I’m vehemently against this. @🦈💜 should not have to worry about correcting someone on this if it’s a misstep. If it was, a quick apology should be the end of that. You shouldn’t have to hide who you are as a human being, just to get a job. The rest of playing the game, I digress.

I just started doing hiring for my legacy airline and I strongly agree with this comment. If I were to misgender you, I’d hope you’d correct me. If you did correct me I can guarantee you it wouldn’t remotely affect the interview in anyway shape or form.

Something that stuck with me during my interviewer standardization is, “You may not offer everyone a job recommendation to the hiring board, but everyone should walk away with a great interview experience.”

I’ll leave you with this. There’s people in this thread that do this stuff for a living, they do it because they enjoy it and they’re passionate about it. They don’t get paid extra to do the work, but they do it because they want to shape the future of their airline. There’s also people in this thread that have no business operating in the car pool lane of the highway, let alone in a flight deck, and especially not in the hiring department.

Take advice from the right people and avoid the noise. Shouldn’t be too hard to figure out which is which.

 

[derg]

To add onto this, generally the team has zero idea of gender, age or much else of a personal nature because those parts are generally redacted on the version of the application the interviewers get.

 

[///AMG]

There’s also people in this thread that have no business operating in the car pool lane of the highway

I'd say anecdotally, this statement applies to almost everyone

 

[Ian_J]

I just started doing hiring for my legacy airline

How did you get into that? Heard that was a really difficult assignment to get.

 

[jhugz]

How did you get into that? Heard that was a really difficult assignment to get.

I applied when it opened, interviewed, and apparently didn’t embarrass myself too much so they offered me the assignment. Without going into numbers, it was a pretty low “hire” rate into the special assignment based on the number of applicants. I was an Aviate mentor for about a year before applying, not sure if that helped the cause, but I’m assuming it didn’t hurt. As a crazy junior CA (99.5% in seat) in a very senior/small base (CLE), it seems as if it will be a good gig for me. May help force me into a line some months and pays better than a reserve day. Of course that’s not my main motivation for doing the gig, but the perks are definitely nice.

 

[killbilly]

I applied when it opened, interviewed, and apparently didn’t embarrass myself too much so they offered me the assignment. Without going into numbers, it was a pretty low “hire” rate into the special assignment based on the number of applicants. I was an Aviate mentor for about a year before applying, not sure if that helped the cause, but I’m assuming it didn’t hurt. As a crazy junior CA (99.5% in seat) in a very senior/small base (CLE), it seems as if it will be a good gig for me. May help force me into a line some months and pays better than a reserve day. Of course that’s not my main motivation for doing the gig, but the perks are definitely nice.

Curious. Do you have any input into the goalposts they set around Aviate?

(Required Disclosure: I am not in Aviate, but I was once.)

 

[jhugz]

Curious. Do you have any input into the goalposts they set around Aviate?

(Required Disclosure: I am not in Aviate, but I was once.)

Goalposts, no, those seem to be a moving target based on numerous factors that are way above my pay grade. I can’t give specific numbers but I can say that United’s goal is to substantially increase the flow of Aviate to mainline for their overall hiring goals. I do believe that even if it’s not the case right now, eventually they do want Aviate to be the quickest way into a United flight deck.

 

[ozziecat35]

Goalposts, no, those seem to be a moving target based on numerous factors that are way above my pay grade. I can’t give specific numbers but I can say that United’s goal is to substantially increase the flow of Aviate to mainline for their overall hiring goals. I do believe that even if it’s not the case right now, eventually they do want Aviate to be the quickest way into a United flight deck.

Hopefully that's the case. When I was at Air Wisconsin, the hardest path to UA was coming from a UAX exclusive carrier. It took a detour to a competitor (that I honestly never thought I'd leave) in order for UA to put me in the "look at seriously."

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

There’s also people in this thread that have no business operating in the car pool lane of the highway, let alone in a flight deck,

I’m feeling attacked right now.

 

[roundout]

Sasha, that's absolutely fine what you found online, however I will say that few people in the business of 'asking questions' ask what they already don't know the answer to. That article will not help in the pursuit of your goals at all because the airlines have what you want, and you want what they have and many of us can help you bridge that gap as many of us have unique skills and experiences which are tremendously helpful for motivated pilots.

An example: the fun part is when people lie in their logbooks. No one is ever going to divulge how tremendously easy it is to figure out, but an interviewer will never show their cards and allude to knowing but the candidate may get some peculiar questions as the cat bats around the lethargic mouse before eating it.

I'm more than happy to help forensically discover what went wrong the day of the interview with EskimoAir, privately. Because when an applicant steps through the door, the team wants to hire that applicant. However, in the interests of time and a full plate of other stuff going on, I cannot serve at a "meta" or pin cushion for grievance. Again, I'm trying to help you toward success but have zero interest in airing of grievances because it's counterproductive.

Like my mentor of almost 30 years says to people I bring to him for career counseling: "If you do the work, you will achieve your goal. If you want to call and complain about how unfair hiring is, I'm not your guy". I brought him a guy who got fired from SouthernJets because he made a series of ridiculously stupid decisions, lied about it, doubled-down, then changed his story again, maligned several people and I assumed he was toast. A few months of work and now he's at one of the top three (not mine) carriers absolutely flourishing.

(*) I'm willing to help you personally reach your goals as I have certain experiences and perspectives 'north' of the average line pilot. It sounds arrogant, of course, but it's the truth. I also know several people that had a similar personal journey that I'm happy to get you in contact with that can provide guidance. HOWEVER, my role would absolutely not a sounding board for grievance or what you feel is wrong with any sort of system because how we feel about the hiring circus is moot.

The ball is in your court. When in doubt, re-read the paragraph with the (*)

Quoted in entirety so that it might get seen again.

Seriously, read it again. Slowly, vulnerably, with an open mind.

 

[🦈💜]

Quoted in entirety so that it might get seen again.

Seriously, read it again. Slowly, vulnerably, with an open mind.

Just so we're all on the same page, while people came in with lots of hiring advice, I didn't post this thread to complain about the hiring process. Other people have expressed their beef with it here, and while I get it, that wasn't my focus.

To @Cherokee_Cruiser et al.
I appreciate your support, but @derg has been nothing but helpful throughout the process, and has provided support offline.

What I replied to above is the notion that people can tell people are lying from the way they answer questions, body language, etc. Apparently that was not what was meant, so fair enough.

Another sidebar:
Personally, I think anyone who outright lies in their logbook has demonstrated that they don't meet the minimum criteria for ethical behavior from an airline pilot, and should be blackballed from the profession.

 

[roundout]

Just so we're all on the same page, while people came in with lots of hiring advice, I didn't post this thread to complain about the hiring process. Other people have expressed their beef with it here, and while I get it, that wasn't my focus.

To @Cherokee_Cruiser et al.
I appreciate your support, but @derg has been nothing but helpful throughout the process, and has provided support offline.

What I replied to above is the notion that people can tell people are lying from the way they answer questions, body language, etc. Apparently that was not what was meant, so fair enough.

Another sidebar:
Personally, I think anyone who outright lies in their logbook has demonstrated that they don't meet the minimum criteria for ethical behavior from an airline pilot, and should be blackballed from the profession.

It sounds to me as if you're utterly physically and mentally exhausted. That's a difficult place from which to operate, both at work and off the clock.

I went back and reread your OP before responding here. When I read it at first, I thought it said "I'm not looking for advice" but when I read it again, you said you were. So I'll give you some: call in sick and get some sleep. With the benefit of that, some of the other good advice And offers of help in this thread might be more effective. Particularly what @derg offered, a forensic deconstruction of interviews that weren't successful. That's probably worth more than anything else anyone could offer you, because when you get that next interview, you'll have a good idea what went wrong on the last one. No interview prep company will be able to do this.

Take you some time off, clear your head, take the man up on his offer. Then come back and see us again.

 

[🦈💜]

It sounds to me as if you're utterly physically and mentally exhausted. That's a difficult place from which to operate, both at work and off the clock.

Absolutely. And it's not just me—all of our left seaters are in the same boat. Even the FOs see it, and are trying to avoid upgrade.

I went back and reread your OP before responding here. When I read it at first, I thought it said "I'm not looking for advice" but when I read it again, you said you were. So I'll give you some: call in sick and get some sleep.

I actually took that advice last week, and it helped a lot. I don't feel bad about it because I was legitimately so run down that I didn't feel a 12+ hour day with a 3am wakeup was a good idea. The hard part is when I feel exhausted and stressed, but have had enough sleep to function (read: not fatigued) and am not sick.

The reason that I say it's a bigger problem is that what I need is honestly a month off to rest, and then a reduced schedule (<80 hours would be fine). Otherwise it's going to come right back. (And has)

That said, I've got some equilibrium back thanks to that one day.

With the benefit of that, some of the other good advice And offers of help in this thread might be more effective. Particularly what @derg offered, a forensic deconstruction of interviews that weren't successful. That's probably worth more than anything else anyone could offer you, because when you get that next interview, you'll have a good idea what went wrong on the last one. No interview prep company will be able to do this.

For sure.

Take you some time off, clear your head, take the man up on his offer. Then come back and see us again.

We don't really get "time off" at my shop. We get 6.4 days of sick/emergency time per year, after which our graph goes red. Past twelve days, from what I hear, you get a call from the chief. We get vacation, but we have no way to use it. Reserves can't drop, swap or trade. We get ~11 days off per month.

All of that is honestly part of why this is stressful. As a lineholder, I could at least offer $$$ for somebody to take my trip. As a reserve, I can't even do that. What I'm scheduled is what I work.

The best I can do is call out sick here and there if I'm on the fence about whether I'm safe. And while that helps, my graph is already in the red.

Anyway, I've said all that before, but it bears repeating as to why this specific thing is adding up so hard.

 

[roundout]

Absolutely. And it's not just me—all of our left seaters are in the same boat. Even the FOs see it, and are trying to avoid upgrade.



I actually took that advice last week, and it helped a lot. I don't feel bad about it because I was legitimately so run down that I didn't feel a 12+ hour day with a 3am wakeup was a good idea. The hard part is when I feel exhausted and stressed, but have had enough sleep to function (read: not fatigued) and am not sick.

The reason that I say it's a bigger problem is that what I need is honestly a month off to rest, and then a reduced schedule (<80 hours would be fine). Otherwise it's going to come right back. (And has)

That said, I've got some equilibrium back thanks to that one day.



For sure.



We don't really get "time off" at my shop. We get 6.4 days of sick/emergency time per year, after which our graph goes red. Past twelve days, from what I hear, you get a call from the chief. We get vacation, but we have no way to use it. Reserves can't drop, swap or trade. We get ~11 days off per month.

All of that is honestly part of why this is stressful. As a lineholder, I could at least offer $$$ for somebody to take my trip. As a reserve, I can't even do that. What I'm scheduled is what I work.

The best I can do is call out sick here and there if I'm on the fence about whether I'm safe. And while that helps, my graph is already in the red.

Anyway, I've said all that before, but it bears repeating as to why this specific thing is adding up so hard.

If SkyWeezy CAs are so in demand, is it likely you would get disciplined or fired if you called in sick (in the red) again?

 

[Roger Roger]

We get vacation, but we have no way to use it.

Y’all don’t bid for it every year? Or whatever other procedure is common at airlines?

 

[word302]

Y’all don’t bid for it every year? Or whatever other procedure is common at airlines?

There are not enough slots for everyone to be awarded their earned vacation for the year. Never mind that there's rollover so guys have banked up tons of time. I think I was only awarded master vacation once in 7.5 years. You get what you pay for with the student council.

 

[Roger Roger]

There are not enough slots for everyone to be awarded their earned vacation for the year. Never mind that there's rollover so guys have banked up tons of time. I think I was only awarded master vacation once in 7.5 years. You get what you pay for with the student council.

That’s horrific

 

[word302]

That’s horrific

Yup. Only one of many many things that not having representation will get you.