Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

roundout said:
If CAs are so in demand, is it likely you would get disciplined or fired if you called in sick (in the red) again?
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Valid question. They can be ruthless. While I feel like I've always been well and fairly-treated, I try to make sure I stay off the radar and give them my best. I have a solid relationship with the chief pilot administration and a lot of respect for everyone I deal with, but ultimately, if I do get disciplined or fired, my career can't absorb that, so do with that what you wish.

To be clear, I don't at all feel like the company is out to get me. I'd like to keep it that way. (While also being outspokenly pro-ALPA, a member of the OC for the previous drive, and, as I say often, trans. There's history there, not involving me, that I don't want to go into.)
 
The OP sounds a lot like my situation before I called it quits and retired from EMS flying. Constant tired, exhausted. However, in my case, I was 60 and just McFrickin had it. At 44, change shops, maybe a 91 job, something. There is a lot of aviation out there where the schedule is much more pleasant.
 
I’ve never understood the “I can’t call in sick” argument.

We work in a safety-critical position. If it isn’t safe, I’m not doing it. Including flying when I’m not fit.

“But, you’re out of sick time”
-I’m sorry, but it is what it is. Figure it out.

“We’re gonna fire you!”
- Sounds great. I’ll go fishing while my labor attorney (who you’ll ultimately pay for) sort it out, and I’ll see you in six months, with full backpay. Oh, and I’ll be more or less “untouchable” for the rest of my tenure, else you be seen as “retaliatory”. Good luck.

Luckily, I’ve never been even close to this nuclear option. My personal “safety threshold” is probably higher than most of my peers, but I’ve kept it in the back pocket jic.

We HAVE to take care of ourselves. If you show up to work, sign the release, and bend the airplane, no one’s gonna’ listen to “I was tired”…

(*edited the first sentence to sound slightly less “jerk”-y🤡 *)
 
Toobdrvr said:
I’ve never understood the “I can’t call in sick” argument.

We work in a safety-critical position. If it isn’t safe, I’m not doing it. Including flying when I’m not fit.

“But, you’re out of sick time”
-I’m sorry, but it is what it is. Figure it out.

“We’re gonna fire you!”
- Sounds great. I’ll go fishing while my labor attorney (who you’ll ultimately pay for) sort it out, and I’ll see you in six months, with full backpay. Oh, and I’ll be more or less “untouchable” for the rest of my tenure, else you be seen as “retaliatory”. Good luck.

Luckily, I’ve never been even close to this nuclear option. My personal “safety threshold” is probably higher than most of my peers, but I’ve kept it in the back pocket jic.

We HAVE to take care of ourselves. If you show up to work, sign the release, and bend the airplane, no one’s gonna’ listen to “I was tired”…

(*edited the first sentence to sound slightly less “jerk”-y🤡 *)
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You’re not wrong. I had the same outlook mostly due to working in another industry and owning my own business before flying. It’s the younger guys with no real life experience that I worry about. OO does a great job at making you feel like you’re putting your career on the line by making healthy/safe choices. Don’t get me started on how many times I’d show up to work and my flying partner that I’m about to be locked in a small box with is obviously sick.
 
word302 said:
You’re not wrong. I had the same outlook mostly due to working in another industry and owning my own business before flying. It’s the younger guys with no real life experience that I worry about. OO does a great job at making you feel like you’re putting your career on the line by making healthy/safe choices. Don’t get me started on how many times I’d show up to work and my flying partner that I’m about to be locked in a small box with is obviously sick.
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I flew a 4 day with a guy who was talking about how he had to go to the CPO during a sit to get his "award" for attendance. He was sniffling and throwing snotty tissues into the trashbag attached to my seat for 4 days.

Guess who got to call in sick for their next trip. It wasn't Mr. Perfect Attendance.
 
Toobdrvr said:
“But, you’re out of sick time”
-I’m sorry, but it is what it is. Figure it out.
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This is what temporary (or longer) disability is for.

My best friend likes to say "onramps, offramps, and turnouts" when talking about various and sundry leave options, and it really is a good way to think about it all. IMS, the SkyWest PPM was not terribly generous with SLOA or medical leave or [I can't remember WTF it was called] by comparison to basically anywhere else I've worked—a terrifically short four years to try to get a First Class back—but even they had a leave option.
 
JordanD said:
I flew a 4 day with a guy who was talking about how he had to go to the CPO during a sit to get his "award" for attendance. He was sniffling and throwing snotty tissues into the trashbag attached to my seat for 4 days.

Guess who got to call in sick for their next trip. It wasn't Mr. Perfect Attendance.
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I love the guys who are sniffling the whole trip, huffing and puffing, and then say, "I hAvE aLlErGies"
 
JordanD said:
I flew a 4 day with a guy who was talking about how he had to go to the CPO during a sit to get his "award" for attendance. He was sniffling and throwing snotty tissues into the trashbag attached to my seat for 4 days.

Guess who got to call in sick for their next trip. It wasn't Mr. Perfect Attendance.
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Can you file an ASAP (or airline equivalent?)? Bring visibility to the issue?
 
SteveC said:
Can you file an ASAP (or airline equivalent?)? Bring visibility to the issue?
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The FAA, historically, have ducked a lot of things that fall under "labor-management relations," including but not limited to the attendance status of a pilot who refuses an FDP extension or calls in fatigued. This is one of those weird "I don't question peoples' fitness for duty unless it's glaringly obvious" mixed with "I don't want anyone but me to decide MY fitness for duty either," with a sprinkling of "you need to be responsible enough to bang out when you've got the super sniffles."

semi-related: We have a 'thing' at the Air Line that categories who use less than (X amount, I forget) of sick leave get an extra individual vacation day or some flummery to that effect. None of the categories 'won' the sick leave contest this leave year. I get why management are torqued about sick leave use - paying someone for a missed trip then paying someone to cover that is a non-zero expenditure - but it's also a negotiated benefit and a known and predictable cost center, to an extent.
 
word302 said:
You’re not wrong. I had the same outlook mostly due to working in another industry and owning my own business before flying. It’s the younger guys with no real life experience that I worry about. OO does a great job at making you feel like you’re putting your career on the line by making healthy/safe choices. Don’t get me started on how many times I’d show up to work and my flying partner that I’m about to be locked in a small box with is obviously sick.
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Early in my career, I had the “benefit” of spending a year at a “fly-by-night” 135 outfit that would only hire young, inexperienced pilots that they could entice with shiny turboprops (they they could get paid waaay subpar wages for), and then “bully” them into doing all sorts of stupid stuff (“fly that broken airplane into that closed airport, in garbage weather! Below mins!? We’ll make you Pt 91!!!”). The boss even kept a stack of resumés on his desk to intimidate you if you tried to say “no”. I got “fired” twice a month on average..

Fortunately, I didn’t die. And walked away with the benefit of several occasions where I told myself “If I survive this sutuation (sometimes doubtful), I’m NEVER doing this again!!!”

It has shaped my approach to Safety Decisions for 30 years. Even got some good interview stories!😂

Postcript: After a year, I participated in an “employee walkout”, where 5 pilots and 2 mechanics quit on the same day (I got my old job back in <5 mins). The company replaced us rather quickly, but the FAA shut em down 2 years later following what should have been a catastrophic accident, that was totally on the company.
 
Skåning said:
I love the guys who are sniffling the whole trip, huffing and puffing, and then say, "I hAvE aLlErGies"
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Maybe it has something to do with the completely filthy flight decks but I step onto some of our tails and I get this itchy sensation in my sinus then my eyes get watery and the sniffles start. It doesn't go away until the next morning. I would never come to work sick but the amount of dust and filth in the flight deck where I am basically breathing in dried up pilot doesn't go to well with my body sometimes.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Maybe it has something to do with the completely filthy flight decks but I step onto some of our tails and I get this itchy sensation in my sinus then my eyes get watery and the sniffles start. It doesn't go away until the next morning. I would never come to work sick but the amount of dust and filth in the flight deck where I am basically breathing in dried up pilot doesn't go to well with my body sometimes.
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To be fair, I’ve noticed in my 30s I generally feel kind of cruddy when I wake up and am much more sensitive to those issues especially moving to a place that’s extremely dry and dusty. That said if I notice I can’t stop blowing my nose, it doesn’t matter how much I kid myself, I’m sick.
 
Toobdrvr said:
I’ve never understood the “I can’t call in sick” argument.
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I fully agree. That's not the argument I'm making, if that wasn't clear. I have historically not called in sick if I wasn't sick, and I've always called in sick if I was.

Toobdrvr said:
We work in a safety-critical position. If it isn’t safe, I’m not doing it. Including flying when I’m not fit.
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Fully agree. But where does the line get drawn when it comes to chronic fatigue from exhausting, degrading schedules? That's the broader issue.

I do know people at other regionals who won't call in sick when they're sick, and our FAs are scared sh—less to call in for any reason ever.

Toobdrvr said:
“But, you’re out of sick time”
-I’m sorry, but it is what it is. Figure it out.

“We’re gonna fire you!”
- Sounds great. I’ll go fishing while my labor attorney (who you’ll ultimately pay for) sort it out, and I’ll see you in six months, with full backpay. Oh, and I’ll be more or less “untouchable” for the rest of my tenure, else you be seen as “retaliatory”. Good luck.
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That only really works if you're at your destination airline, as once you get fired and sue your employer, you're gonna stay there.

But ultimately, I agree with what you're saying and apply it, so don't pin me with that one. What I'm talking about is calling in sick when you're not sick. (Or fatigued when you're not fatigued)
 
word302 said:
bUt uNIonS aRe bAd.
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I hate Skywest with a passion and will drop a huge deuce on their grave if they ever disappear, but ASA was the same deal in terms of sick calls. They were better with fatigue though, which I’d argue is more fitting to OPs situation. If all the captains are tired and called in fatigued with the appropriate reports, maybe there might be an effort to fix things. Or at least data for when someone has an incident.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I hate Skywest with a passion and will drop a huge deuce on their grave if they ever disappear, but ASA was the same deal in terms of sick calls. They were better with fatigue though, which I’d argue is more fitting to OPs situation. If all the captains are tired and called in fatigued with the appropriate reports, maybe there might be an effort to fix things. Or at least data for when someone has an incident.
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For sure. The fatigue call is a very underutilized tool at the regional level. I started using it judiciously because I knew I was at least somewhat protected. I remember a specific fatigue call before a trip. “Sir you didn’t work yesterday so how can you be fatigued?” Uh show me anywhere in the regulations that fatigue has to be work-related. “OK I’ll take you off fatigued”. The gut punch is that less than half of my legit, work-related fatigue calls were ever paid, which is probably why it’s underutilized.
 
I guess I use a broader definition for when I consider myself “sick”. If there’s anything physically, mentally, or emotionally preventing me from safely performing my duties, I’m banging out sick. Doesn’t require a viral or bacterial infection.

I don’t really care how the company “codes” my absence. Sick, Fatigued, Distracted, Stressed, whatever. Sure, we have a pretty specific definition of “Fatigue”. If it fits, I’ll use it. Otherwise…

Even my (destination carrier) employer has what I consider a rather “punitive” sick use policy. Fortunately, the threshold is pretty high before you end up in “the red”. I still wouldn’t hesitate to bang out if I needed to, and would be ready to take em to the mat if they pushed me…


🦈💜 said:
I do know people at other regionals who won't call in sick when they're sick, and our FAs are scared sh—less to call in for any reason ever.
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That’s unfortunate. And should change.


🦈💜 said:
That only really works if you're at your destination airline, as once you get fired and sue your employer, you're gonna stay there.
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Respectfully, I don’t believe this is true.
 
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