Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

[derg]

You are on the other end of that equation. I spoke from first hand experience of having done those rounds as a pilot, on the other end, among the thousands lined up. Respectfully, that’s not the position you spoke from, and was an experience that you did not endure.




Regardless, why beat around the bush?

Wanna help her? Two simple things:

1. Pull up her app in your system, review it, and tell her to fix things that otherwise would get a fix-it email.


2. Once that’s done, forward that app to whoever sends out the email for “Congrats! We are inviting you for an interview in Atlanta!” and use your pull/weight to ensure that email gets sent out.



That = helped.

You keep bringing your metaphorical Kazoo to The Boston Symphony and asking the director where you seat is in the orchestra pit.

Hush. You have no domain expertise on the subject.

 

[word302]

You keep bringing your metaphorical Kazoo to The Boston Symphony and asking the director where you seat is in the orchestra pit.

Hush. You have no domain expertise on the subject.

As a classically-trained musician I literally just spit out my Dr Pepper Zero.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

So, if the minimum requirements say X hours, ATP, college degree, etc and you can't check all those boxes it's unreasonable to expect a call back offering a position. You wouldn't apply if you didn't have the time or certificates, so adhering to a personal opinion regarding the value of those other requirements isn't going to further career advancement. In any industry, when the hiring environment is highly competitive and the number of open seats is finite you have to do whatever it takes to stand out from the crowd.

There's the requirements, then there are the, er, requirements, y'know.

I strongly believe in the value of higher education and that it generally contributes to a broader thinking and more well rounded society, but it shouldn't be a stopgap for lack of a plan. I also think the government should fund at least two year STEM associates programs or trade schools with a sprinkling of liberal arts courses worked into the curriculum. More education is never a bad thing, but we've been steadily pricing that option out of the grasp of the average person for the last 20+ years.

Well...we've largely gotten the 'public' part out of 'public higher education' lately, which was and is something I will complain vociferously about too.

There's certainly room for cost control and cost discipline—from the time I showed up in 2005 to the day I wrote the last of my tuition checks in Spring '10[1], my 'fees' went up by something like 110%, a point I made to the Board of Trustees once—and certainly, the value proposition does get skewed when you consider how much more students/their parents have to pay for it.

[1] Super senior year for second degree.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

This is reasonable advice for checking the box if you are totally mentally checked out from academia and convinced it’s a scam. I got similar advice to major in whatever the cliche “underwater basket weaving” degree was when pursuing aviation when I was younger. But it misses the mark on two things:

1. Flying airplanes is really fun, and people who are already rich like to do it as a career which artificially keeps pay low (ok I am probably greatly oversimplifying the problem, but it’s certainly a factor). As a result an “Aeronautical Science” type bachelors degree ends up being a lot more expensive at someplace like Embry-Riddle because a.) public universities don’t generally offer this type of major, so ERAU as a private university has more expensive tuition and b.) You have the extra cost of training, which is N/A in Shark’s case.

2. We are all one unplanned medical incident away from not having a pilots license, so perhaps it’s unwise to put all your professional eggs in the aviation basket? Shark worked in tech, how about a computer science degree? Shark is an accomplished science fiction writer, how about a degree in literature? Your more “conventional” bachelors degrees will be available at public universities and qualify for lower priced in-state tuition AND government-backed student loans with lower interest rates than private loans.

Just some food for thought - everything checks the box, but why not pursue something else you’re passionate about both as a backup career if things go south and as something that makes you a multi-faceted well-rounded candidate that is more than just pilot. I certainly don’t want to dissuade any would-be aeronautical science majors either if you have access to the resources to make that happen, but I think I would wear a degree in something different as a badge of honor in an interview because candidates with diversity of experience and background bring a lot to the table and help companies in general grow, not just airlines.

I’d agree with this, if she was 18-22 yrs old. Today, around mid 40s? Not so much. At least, not if her true goal of getting a degree is only to check a box for a legacy job. If she has the passion for a writing or techie degree, then more power to her. But at some point, you also have to look at ROI. She’s half life already.

 

[Kingairer]

I’d agree with this, if she was 18-22 yrs old. Today, around mid 40s? Not so much. At least, not if her true goal of getting a degree is only to check a box for a legacy job. If she has the passion for a writing or techie degree, then more power to her. But at some point, you also have to look at ROI. She’s half life already.

The ROI is the job and QOL she covets. Getting a degree online isn't easy while you're working, but it's doable. This is one reason why I think it's best to follow the traditional route of getting it after high school: Life gets more complicated as we get older. But I'd continue to pursue what I want (continue applying) while also working to strengthen my resume.

 

[inigo88]

I’d agree with this, if she was 18-22 yrs old. Today, around mid 40s? Not so much. At least, not if her true goal of getting a degree is only to check a box for a legacy job. If she has the passion for a writing or techie degree, then more power to her. But at some point, you also have to look at ROI. She’s half life already.

Fair points. I guess since she’s said multiple times in this thread that she was considering hanging it up and doing something else, I was approaching it from that angle. Maybe she checks the box, gets hired on at Eskimo Virtual Airlines (TM) and finds that schedule unbearable too and quits the industry anyway. At that point maybe the ROI for majoring in the backup career was worth it? Ultimately I don’t want to talk anyone out of their dream job, I’m just kinda reacting to what has been said in this thread so far.

 

[derg]

Fair points. I guess since she’s said multiple times in this thread that she was considering hanging it up and doing something else, I was approaching it from that angle. Maybe she checks the box, gets hired on at Eskimo Virtual Airlines (TM) and finds that schedule unbearable too and quits the industry anyway. At that point maybe the ROI for majoring in the backup career was worth it? Ultimately I don’t want to talk anyone out of their dream job, I’m just kinda reacting to what has been said in this thread so far.

I’m always a proponent for a ‘Plan B”. Most of the “Plan B’s” that would even come close to replacing my income aren’t going to be something I could walk into without some sort of pedigree or degree.

Morgan Stanley doesn’t give a rats ass about my turbine PIC.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I’m always a proponent for a ‘Plan B”. Most of the “Plan B’s” that would even come close to replacing my income aren’t going to be something I could walk into without some sort of pedigree or degree.

Morgan Stanley doesn’t give a rats ass about my turbine PIC.

Same. Kids are the WORST

 

[milleR]

There's the requirements, then there are the, er, requirements, y'know.

There’s never any predicting what will happen in aviation, but the odds of the bare minimum requirements being adequate for a CJO at a top tier carrier coming back in the near future are probably slim to none, and Slim just took the last horse out of town.

 

[nc1982]

I work for SouthernJets.

That was more of a 'take the guidance or not' post, not an airing of grievances or soliciting opinion because you're not an expert in this domain, whatsoever. We have knowledgeable people in the bullpen ready to answer questions with little need for your four-crayon approach to coloring in subjects you know little of.

Otherwise, yet again, we ruin a good discussion, riddle it with grievance and pithy opinion where there are actually those that have subject expertise.

In other words, please shut up, I'm trying to help people.

Speaking of which, any idea when the recruitment team is hiring again? I missed the last window and would love to get on the team.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I’m always a proponent for a ‘Plan B”. Most of the “Plan B’s” that would even come close to replacing my income aren’t going to be something I could walk into without some sort of pedigree or degree.

Morgan Stanley doesn’t give a rats ass about my turbine PIC.

Isn’t plan B retire in style?

I don’t plane to pursue full time work after current gig. I expect that to place me at 50-55.

Kids will be in college and I think a 65’ sail cat has my name on it. (Assuming California will have practically annexed Montana /NM/TX at that point which were other plans)

 

[derg]

My “Plan B” is basically not going back to work. HOWEVER, that’s after 25+ years of working and saving.

The average per under the age of 50 still needs a “Plan B” if/when things go pear-shaped in the business.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

My “Plan B” is basically not going back to work. HOWEVER, that’s after 25+ years of working and saving.

The average per under the age of 50 still needs a “Plan B” if/when things go pear-shaped in the business.

Pretty much same- however - if I have nothing productive to do I find projects - and that’s sometimes not great.

Figure I’ll contract (large cabins are $2500-3k per day) and then. Work odd things on my own terms…. But expect this to be my last full time commitment to somebody else’s time.

 

[///AMG]

Corporate America interviews, not aviation. But my point was that I see people screw up what should be easy questions often. I'll assume pilots aren't much different. At least from my perspective, the STAR format questions aren't meant to be trick questions. But the applicants can turn them into that somehow. The answers don't have to be how you saved the world.

That all is fair, and has been my experience too (at least on the other end of the table). I was more commenting on what you suggested would be a good answer. I agree that it would be a great answer. However probably not a common one, if we were to assume people are being honest about themselves.

 

[derg]

Corporate America interviews, not aviation. But my point was that I see people screw up what should be easy questions often. I'll assume pilots aren't much different. At least from my perspective, the STAR format questions aren't meant to be trick questions. But the applicants can turn them into that somehow. The answers don't have to be how you saved the world.

This is true.

If people think pilots are sitting around with a Scotch making up questions to ask, they're mistaken.

No one would ever want someone to walk up to them, unsolicited, and say "you're attractive, I'm attractive, you're at the bar at Chilis in the suburbs on a Friday night so clearly you're looking, I'm employed, lets get married tomorrow" but some expect airline interviews to work that way. Some may, but nowhere you really want to work long term.

On the surface, that's one of my worst metaphors this week. But if you dig a little deeper.... is it tho?

 

[form810]

I'll try to make this succinct:

I'm not moving on to a legacy. Whether it's because I'm trans, I don't have a degree, they don't like my face, idk, but nobody's calling, and I'm 44.

I absolutely love the flying part of this job. I love taking care of my passengers, my crews, and the art and artistry of flying a transport category jet well. Being captain is wonderful, and the airplane I fly is, in my biased opinion, one of the best in the industry. My FOs and FAs often tell me that they love flying with me, and seem happy to see me on their schedules, and I love the crews I fly with.

But I'm tired. Bone tired. Chronically fatigued. My quality of life is nonexistent, and I have no control over my schedule. Senior captains at my airline with almost 30 years are saying same thing. We have no ability to modify our schedules—what we're awarded is what we fly unless we call out sick, which the company is extremely aggressive about. (We get 6 days per year before we start getting the side-eye. That's one 4-day and two locals.)

In my case, I'm at the bottom of the list for the entirety of the foreseeable future, so I'm getting AM short call reserve (2hr) at 3am, 18-19 days per month.

I get called every single reserve day, usually right at 3am for a 5am show. My circadian rhythm is permanently nocturnal—I don't go to sleep until 6am on my days off, which often leads to having less than an hour of poor-quality off-cycle sleep before my alarm goes off.

Tomorrow I have a 5am report time to work an 11 hour, 4-leg day—which will probably be 12-13+ hours, with delays factored in, followed by min rest (9.5 hours) and a 0355 show (base time) the next day.

It's literally shortening my lifespan and wrecking my life. There is no end in sight.

For the first time in more than ten years of flying professionally, I'm making enough to make ends meet. But only just barely. I'm touching about $200k of income, but that's really close to what I made in my first full year working in tech as a 19-year-old, when you adjust it for inflation. (For reference, tech jobs that I'm qualified for are around $210-$280k at the moment, which has also basically just scaled with inflation.)

It's still not enough to afford a house anywhere safe for me and my mates.

If I sound somewhat desperate, it's because I am. Something's got to give—I'm being run to death, and I don't know what to do.

All I've ever wanted to do was fly, and I still do, but I'm considering hanging up my wings.

I could use some advice.

(That said, I'm looking for advice, not 'tough love,' 'GeT A DeGReE' or any of that. I'm currently taking one class per term on the side in pursuit of knowledge, and I barely have enough time to do the minimum.)

Hey Bud. I feel your pain. I have empathy.

I suspect I approach your current viewpoint from a very different perspective. Still, even if different coordinates, it seems we are in very similar places (think the arctic and the antarctic).

This industry is dull while pretending to be "innovative". This industry is opaque while pretending to be "transparent". This industry is corrupt while pretending to be "principled". This industry has become almost spherically financialized.

I love to fly, too. It's one of the only places I leave everything else; and, thereby, reconnect with all the things that matter. I focus. And I fly. And when flying... I fly. That's it. Flying is my zen place. It engages all my faculties: Psycho-motor, Spacial apperception, Intellect. That engagement puts me at peace. Nothing else matters. No Bull. No "smart phones". No paperwork. No schedule gaming. No worries about the new roof quote. No worries about "the relationship". No worries even about the Scroog-like parsimony of the asshat billionaire boss sitting two rows behind me.

I've flown right-side up. I've flown up-side down. I've flown sideways. I've flown at FL510. I've flown at 2 feet AGL. I've flown to 25 nations. I've flown scores of different aircraft types - from open cockpit biplanes to super-mid-size luxury jets. I've never had an accident. I've never had an incident. I've never had an investigation, or a violation, or an altercation. I've taught hundreds of students, who, as far as I know, have never bent metal, hurt themselves or others, or caused insurance claims.

Flying is one of my very few "happy places".

Still, it has grown ever more horrible over the years. Ever more McJob-like. Ever more corporate and liability-focused. Ever more soulless. Ever more corporate. Ever more automated. Ever more detached. Ever more empty.

I still love to fly. But, I'm really thinking of hanging it up as an employment. I'll just putter about in a Citabria. Below the rim of the valley, inverted, reverse-controlled, and look at the trout in the stream below me... and realize I'm right side up again. It's the world that's gone upside down.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Hey Bud. I feel your pain. I have empathy.

I suspect I approach your current viewpoint from a very different perspective. Still, even if different coordinates, it seems we are in very similar places (think the arctic and the antarctic).

This industry is dull while pretending to be "innovative". This industry is opaque while pretending to be "transparent". This industry is corrupt while pretending to be "principled". This industry has become almost spherically financialized.

I love to fly, too. It's one of the only places I leave everything else; and, thereby, reconnect with all the things that matter. I focus. And I fly. And when flying... I fly. That's it. Flying is my zen place. It engages all my faculties: Psycho-motor, Spacial apperception, Intellect. That engagement puts me at peace. Nothing else matters. No Bull. No "smart phones". No paperwork. No schedule gaming. No worries about the new roof quote. No worries about "the relationship". No worries even about the Scroog-like parsimony of the asshat billionaire boss sitting two rows behind me.

I've flown right-side up. I've flown up-side down. I've flown sideways. I've flown at FL510. I've flown at 2 feet AGL. I've flown to 25 nations. I've flown scores of different aircraft types - from open cockpit biplanes to super-mid-size luxury jets. I've never had an accident. I've never had an incident. I've never had an investigation, or a violation, or an altercation. I've taught hundreds of students, who, as far as I know, have never bent metal, hurt themselves or others, or caused insurance claims.

Flying is one of my very few "happy places".

Still, it has grown ever more horrible over the years. Ever more McJob-like. Ever more corporate and liability-focused. Ever more soulless. Ever more corporate. Ever more automated. Ever more detached. Ever more empty.

I still love to fly. But, I'm really thinking of hanging it up as an employment. I'll just putter about in a Citabria. Below the rim of the valley, inverted, reverse-controlled, and look at the trout in the stream below me... and realize I'm right side up again. It's the world that's gone upside down.

That’s not just flying. That is every job in the modern age. Look at sports. Instead of just enjoying the skill of a particular player, it’s all broken down into analytics. This stat, that stat. We can’t just eat a hot dog and appreciate the artistry of the game.

I think happiness is ignoring the art critics and enjoy being an artist.

 

[form810]

That’s not just flying. That is every job in the modern age. Look at sports. Instead of just enjoying the skill of a particular player, it’s all broken down into analytics. This stat, that stat. We can’t just eat a hot dog and appreciate the artistry of the game.

I think happiness is ignoring the art critics and enjoy being an artist.

Well, if you eat a hot dog at the start, you might just die of cancer before the game even gets to half-time.

And yeah, "enjoy being an artist" for sure. But that assumes you ARE one. There really aren't many out there. You know that, right?

Heck, man, most folks don't even know what "art" is, except to know that it's something billionaires buy/sell or support via exclusive cocktail soirées... or, since the early Nineties, a Rap "artist".

 

[Bob Ridpath]

"There really aren't many out there. You know that, right?"

Perhaps more than you might grudgingly admit, although our understanding of the word and it's application to individual lives might differ

 

[Screaming_Emu]

That’s not just flying. That is every job in the modern age. Look at sports. Instead of just enjoying the skill of a particular player, it’s all broken down into analytics. This stat, that stat. We can’t just eat a hot dog and appreciate the artistry of the game.

I think happiness is ignoring the art critics and enjoy being an artist.

That and all the sports betting BS