Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

[JEP]

Sasha, that's absolutely fine what you found online, however I will say that few people in the business of 'asking questions' ask what they already don't know the answer to. That article will not help in the pursuit of your goals at all because the airlines have what you want, and you want what they have and many of us can help you bridge that gap as many of us have unique skills and experiences which are tremendously helpful for motivated pilots.

An example: the fun part is when people lie in their logbooks. No one is ever going to divulge how tremendously easy it is to figure out, but an interviewer will never show their cards and allude to knowing but the candidate may get some peculiar questions as the cat bats around the lethargic mouse before eating it.

I'm more than happy to help forensically discover what went wrong the day of the interview with EskimoAir, privately. Because when an applicant steps through the door, the team wants to hire that applicant. However, in the interests of time and a full plate of other stuff going on, I cannot serve at a "meta" or pin cushion for grievance. Again, I'm trying to help you toward success but have zero interest in airing of grievances because it's counterproductive.

Like my mentor of almost 30 years says to people I bring to him for career counseling: "If you do the work, you will achieve your goal. If you want to call and complain about how unfair hiring is, I'm not your guy". I brought him a guy who got fired from SouthernJets because he made a series of ridiculously stupid decisions, lied about it, doubled-down, then changed his story again, maligned several people and I assumed he was toast. A few months of work and now he's at one of the top three (not mine) carriers absolutely flourishing.

(*) I'm willing to help you personally reach your goals as I have certain experiences and perspectives 'north' of the average line pilot. It sounds arrogant, of course, but it's the truth. I also know several people that had a similar personal journey that I'm happy to get you in contact with that can provide guidance. HOWEVER, my role would absolutely not a sounding board for grievance or what you feel is wrong with any sort of system because how we feel about the hiring circus is moot.

The ball is in your court. When in doubt, re-read the paragraph with the (*)

Can you hear that.......? Someone/something is knocking at the door. Whether or not the door is opened is a choice.

 

[Kingairer]

.......the jetway, called up the rapper as well and did a jetway huddle including the lead flight attendant" and everyone knows it's BS because a gate agent would tell you to kiss his grits, the ramp agent is too busy and your lead FA has her own stuff going on, but that's not what the interviewers are looking for.

Dang, you guys really DO have everything. That would be so much fun to huddle up in the jetbridge and rap!

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Not sure if you do 121 hiring, or some other area (sorry, I should know this by now, I just can't remember at the moment), but I'd say that if anything, this actually highlights how stupid the process is. Do you all actually believe that "I told my boss no and it saved the company millions because he/she was so inept" is a common situation? I've been an employee for a long time, and recently stepped into the "boss" role in one job, and I can honestly say I have no story that resembles this hypothetical scenario. Most of the other dumb questions are worded in a similar way, with bated breath about how you will answer. Nobody applying to a pilot job is saving the world, or the next CEO. They are applying to spend a career flying the line, and hopefully not ever be noticed by management until they have their retirement shindig. I'm not saying this to take a jab at you or your employer personally, just highlighting a trend I've noticed. You say that the company is trying to evaluate people based on the job requirements or something, and then this question is asked, which at very best, requires a person to answer very "creatively" (when the reality is, 99.99999999% of the time) that they just showed up at report time and didn't ever crash. We aren't a community of really impressive business people. I feel like that should be common knowledge Maybe I just suck at life though

I told my boss no this week. TBD if it saved us money. I mean, it meant he had to take an airline flight… which was def cheaper than pulling the plane out of the paint shop to fly it an hour…

I also told him to buy another jet if he doesn’t want down time… so maybe I cost us a few million.

Jurry still out..

So maybe?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I work for SouthernJets.

That was more of a 'take the guidance or not' post, not an airing of grievances or soliciting opinion because you're not an expert in this domain, whatsoever. We have knowledgeable people in the bullpen ready to answer questions with little need for your four-crayon approach to coloring in subjects you know little of.

Otherwise, yet again, we ruin a good discussion, riddle it with grievance and pithy opinion where there are actually those that have subject expertise.

In other words, please shut up, I'm trying to help people.

You are on the other end of that equation. I spoke from first hand experience of having done those rounds as a pilot, on the other end, among the thousands lined up. Respectfully, that’s not the position you spoke from, and was an experience that you did not endure.




Regardless, why beat around the bush?

Wanna help her? Two simple things:

1. Pull up her app in your system, review it, and tell her to fix things that otherwise would get a fix-it email.


2. Once that’s done, forward that app to whoever sends out the email for “Congrats! We are inviting you for an interview in Atlanta!” and use your pull/weight to ensure that email gets sent out.



That = helped.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

You are on the other end of that equation. I spoke from first hand experience of having done those rounds as a pilot, on the other end, among the thousands lined up. Respectfully, that’s not the position you spoke from, and was an experience that you did not endure.




Regardless, why beat around the bush?

Wanna help her? Two simple things:

1. Pull up her app in your system, review it, and tell her to fix things that otherwise would get a fix-it email.


2. Once that’s done, forward that app to whoever sends out the email for “Congrats! We are inviting you for an interview in Atlanta!” and use your pull/weight to ensure that email gets sent out.



That = helped.

Blue chips lose their weight if they get sent out for every user that happens to ask on his web site…

To me it certainly seems like Derg is saying “I’ll help But you need to take the first step”

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Blue chips lose their weight if they get sent out for every user that happens to ask on his web site…

To me it certainly seems like Derg is saying “I’ll help But you need to take the first step”

Obviously. But one has to decide who’s worthy to help, and IMO long term members are worth to at least get a shot.

Why would anyone help a known liar who doubled down on lies and got himself fired at Widget Airlines? Sorry, but screw that guy. He doesn’t deserve to be at any major airline. I’d rather help someone like Shark.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

SMFH

[Redacted - you’re tone deaf, and you don’t actually hear what is said to you anyway. Waste of time/effort - and that’s an impressive bar to get over since I’m retired and have more time than most.]

Sorry, I guess. I’m not looking for help. But she is mid 40s. At this stage in the career, she doesn’t need the mentoring fluff. It’s not her first rodeo. She needs the app forwarded to the hiring department, an email for an interview, and interview prep help. Don’t need “feel good” motivation stories or to be to told to be hungry etc. that crap is for your 20s and 30s.

 

[JEP]

Obviously. But one has to decide who’s worthy to help, and IMO long term members are worth to at least get a shot.

Why would anyone help a known liar who doubled down on lies and got himself fired at Widget Airlines? Sorry, but screw that guy. He doesn’t deserve to be at any major airline. I’d rather help someone like Shark.

Doug (and others) has made it very clear what he is willing to do to help but one has to be willing to receive that help and that has not been evident at all. i have never met the OP but if the vibe that is being 'placed out there' is evident in any interview i could see how things have not progressed.

 

[ppragman]

So I’m going to continue to unapologetically tell people who are seeking employment in this industry to go to college. Granted there’s a large smacking hint of “works for me” in this, but it doesn’t merely work for me—it’s worked for a lot of people. Even the guys that I worked with that majored in Fraternity Drinking, I mean, like, Business or whatever, at Florida State, and not ‘real’ disciplines.

Also, it's 2024 - you don't need to do the damn thing at a university. You can take 6 credits a semester for 7 or 8 years and still walk away with a BS in something you enjoy and if you're doing that while you're off flying in CFI land and RJ land you'll be able to tick that box at your major interview.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Doug (and others) has made it very clear what he is willing to do to help but one has to be willing to receive that help and that has not been evident at all. i have never met the OP but if the vibe that is being 'placed out there' is evident in any interview i could see how things have not progressed.

Officially recommending someone means putting your name next to theirs. It’s a non-inconsequential thing to do.

I’m basically nobody where I work, and I am very choosy about who I am willing to do that for, owing to a combination of being burned pretty severely a few times plus general aeronautical misanthropy taking over in my “late” thirties and knowing what a letter does and does not ‘do’ within the confines of our process.

(I’m happy to report that of the people I’ve recommended who have progressed to an interview, they’ve got a 100% pass rate. I would prefer to keep it so, for my own sanity if nothing else.)

Also, it's 2024 - you don't need to do the damn thing at a university. You can take 6 credits a semester for 7 or 8 years and still walk away with a BS in something you enjoy and if you're doing that while you're off flying in CFI land and RJ land you'll be able to tick that box at your major interview.

Oh indeed. I do like the physical campuses—I have yet to meet a university I thought was ‘ugly’—but having done a distance-learning M.S. I’m here to tell you that it’s “good enough” and certainly achievable.

 

[ppragman]

Oh indeed. I do like the physical campuses—I have yet to meet a university I thought was ‘ugly’—but having done a distance-learning M.S. I’m here to tell you that it’s “good enough” and certainly achievable.

Exactly, I've done both too, my masters was all in person and both undergrads were about 50-50 split. Online is fine.

The real career advantage a lot of times is showing that you've taken the time to try to improve yourself and showing that you can persist through adversity.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Not sure if you do 121 hiring, or some other area (sorry, I should know this by now, I just can't remember at the moment), but I'd say that if anything, this actually highlights how stupid the process is. Do you all actually believe that "I told my boss no and it saved the company millions because he/she was so inept" is a common situation? I've been an employee for a long time, and recently stepped into the "boss" role in one job, and I can honestly say I have no story that resembles this hypothetical scenario. Most of the other dumb questions are worded in a similar way, with bated breath about how you will answer.

Corporate America interviews, not aviation. But my point was that I see people screw up what should be easy questions often. I'll assume pilots aren't much different. At least from my perspective, the STAR format questions aren't meant to be trick questions. But the applicants can turn them into that somehow. The answers don't have to be how you saved the world.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

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[Kingairer]

"When was the last time you had to tell your boss no, and why?" Hint, hint - have some answers to questions like those ready, hopefully that got your boss promoted and saved the company some money.

"My boss asked me to come in on Saturday, I told him no, saved the company my overtime pay, they fired me the next day and saved the company even MORE money, boss looked like a champ for finally getting rid of me and got promoted. Next question".

 

[drunkenbeagle]

My friend who does interviews for an airline knows exactly when you're lying or misrepresenting yourself.

It's not that hard to notice. Pilots are generally narcissistic and when they think they're getting away with something, well, lets just say the interviewers already know but are trained to not give non-verbal response cues or show anything other from a blank face to a polite/generic smile.

Oddly, I don't know that I've come across a lot of lying in the tech interview world. Certainly not something we are trained to look for.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

"My boss asked me to come in on Saturday, I told him no, saved the company my overtime pay, they fired me the next day and saved the company even MORE money, boss looked like a champ for finally getting rid of me and got promoted. Next question".

Overtime pay? What's that?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Which, in living memory, is still wildly (groan) unprecedented (groan). BTW, you gonna be at the head shed next week?

Or, with emphasis added:

There has never been another time better in my living memory to be an airline pilot seeking employment at another airline/air line.

My Mom doesn’t merely go to college, she teaches college - and she went back in her fifties and went straight through to a master’s degree and got a job lecturing in the department, in fact. I doubt she regrets any of it, even if Cal Fac wages are simply unamazing. It’s never too late, and while I often, especially when I’m feeling particularly…miffed, shall we say…joke that someone can borrow my degrees as they haven’t done me any good, that’s wildly false. I remain convinced I would not have been hired at my first aviation job without my undergraduate education, and I still am convinced that Spirit, despite not requiring one at all (spoiler: slightly more than half of the pilot group still had a B.A. or a B.S. aaaaanyway), was impressed I was going to grad school nights/weekends. I am also convinced that I am effective outside of the flight deck because of both my undergraduate and graduate education.

I had the opportunity to speak to all three of my Mom’s history courses earlier in their semester, as one of the ‘older’ graduates of the University (2003 establishment), and while I’m sure some of those students were in that class to check boxes (god knows I did enough of that too) I also guarantee they will get something else out of every class they take outside of their major. It might not always be something written down in a learning outcome somewhere, but universities are wonderful places preparing people to participate as informed citizens in a republic.

This is more of a societal thing but it’s apropos to this thread too: Why do you think people are trying so hard to tear down colleges and universities and diminish their value (including some people who fly airplanes, themselves the embodiment of considerable technological progress and an amazing triumph of our first hundred years of slipping the surly bonds, and darn well better ought to know better)? It’s not accidental. An educated citizenry imbued with compassion and curiosity is the single best bulwark against tyranny there is, far moreso than any amount of firepower ever amassed or any opiate of the masses ever conceived.

Finally, too: Unless you’re an incredibly lucky unicorn like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, the latter of whom came from money in Seattle anyway and never had to worry about basic security, your best odds at social mobility come from getting a university education. And your best odds of being able to feed yourself if you do lose that First Class are going to come if you have that piece of paper, and preferably some skills and knowledge thereunto appertaining.

So I’m going to continue to unapologetically tell people who are seeking employment in this industry to go to college. Granted there’s a large smacking hint of “works for me” in this, but it doesn’t merely work for me—it’s worked for a lot of people. Even the guys that I worked with that majored in Fraternity Drinking, I mean, like, Business or whatever, at Florida State, and not ‘real’ disciplines.

I wasn’t going to say anything but here goes.


College/University has basically become a scam. With govt backed loans, there is virtually no check on tuition rates. Those rates have FAR exceeded the rate of inflation for about the past 25 yrs. For MANY people, the ROI on their degree isn’t worth it. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not talking the science, engineering, etc, technical degrees. It’s the other fields that are fluffy crap where you won’t get jack in terms of a job that actually allows you to pay the loan back. There IS a reason you have a bunch of Biden voters lined up demanding loan forgiveness.

My college roommate, BS in political science. Literally a made up BS name. Today? Works in computer networks, he was always good in computers and got some network certification. Newsflash, he could have saved 4 yrs and $60k and still be where he is today.

Yes, I’m aware of the stats that show college grads earnings over a cater versus HS grads over a career.


Mad respect to Shark if she is making $200k and no college degree.


You seem to admit in your last paragraph, where you admit get a BS in BS. It’s basically checking a box for pilots. Period. And to all those who went to Riddle or similar with BS in “Aviation Science,” that too is a useless worthless degree. It has no real life translation. You basically made Comm-Inst-ME-CFI-I-MEI into a degree. But hey, it checks the box.


For Shark: This is just another BS box that checking off will only help you. As much as it sucks, I’d try to see if you can do the online pilot degree thing. They give you credit for your ratings, and then you take about 2(?) yrs worth of online classes and get a piece of paper saying you have a BS.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I wasn’t going to say anything but here goes.


College/University has basically become a scam. With govt backed loans, there is virtually no check on tuition rates. Those rates have FAR exceeded the rate of inflation for about the past 25 yrs. For MANY people, the ROI on their degree isn’t worth it. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not talking the science, engineering, etc, technical degrees. It’s the other fields that are fluffy crap where you won’t get jack in terms of a job that actually allows you to pay the loan back. There IS a reason you have a bunch of Biden voters lined up demanding loan forgiveness.

My college roommate, BS in political science. Literally a made up BS name. Today? Works in computer networks, he was always good in computers and got some network certification. Newsflash, he could have saved 4 yrs and $60k and still be where he is today.

Yes, I’m aware of the stats that show college grads earnings over a cater versus HS grads over a career.


Mad respect to Shark if she is making $200k and no college degree.


You seem to admit in your last paragraph, where you admit get a BS in BS. It’s basically checking a box for pilots. Period. And to all those who went to Riddle or similar with BS in “Aviation Science,” that too is a useless worthless degree. It has no real life translation. You basically made Comm-Inst-ME-CFI-I-MEI into a degree. But hey, it checks the box.


For Shark: This is just another BS box that checking off will only help you. As much as it sucks, I’d try to see if you can do the online pilot degree thing. They give you credit for your ratings, and then you take about 2(?) yrs worth of online classes and get a piece of paper saying you have a BS.

You may or may not be loosely aligned with the tyrants and fascist impulses seeking to dismantle those institutions to which I was referring.

 

[inigo88]

For Shark: This is just another BS box that checking off will only help you. As much as it sucks, I’d try to see if you can do the online pilot degree thing. They give you credit for your ratings, and then you take about 2(?) yrs worth of online classes and get a piece of paper saying you have a BS.

This is reasonable advice for checking the box if you are totally mentally checked out from academia and convinced it’s a scam. I got similar advice to major in whatever the cliche “underwater basket weaving” degree was when pursuing aviation when I was younger. But it misses the mark on two things:

1. Flying airplanes is really fun, and people who are already rich like to do it as a career which artificially keeps pay low (ok I am probably greatly oversimplifying the problem, but it’s certainly a factor). As a result an “Aeronautical Science” type bachelors degree ends up being a lot more expensive at someplace like Embry-Riddle because a.) public universities don’t generally offer this type of major, so ERAU as a private university has more expensive tuition and b.) You have the extra cost of training, which is N/A in Shark’s case.

2. We are all one unplanned medical incident away from not having a pilots license, so perhaps it’s unwise to put all your professional eggs in the aviation basket? Shark worked in tech, how about a computer science degree? Shark is an accomplished science fiction writer, how about a degree in literature? Your more “conventional” bachelors degrees will be available at public universities and qualify for lower priced in-state tuition AND government-backed student loans with lower interest rates than private loans.

Just some food for thought - everything checks the box, but why not pursue something else you’re passionate about both as a backup career if things go south and as something that makes you a multi-faceted well-rounded candidate that is more than just pilot. I certainly don’t want to dissuade any would-be aeronautical science majors either if you have access to the resources to make that happen, but I think I would wear a degree in something different as a badge of honor in an interview because candidates with diversity of experience and background bring a lot to the table and help companies in general grow, not just airlines.

 

[milleR]

Which, in living memory, is still wildly (groan) unprecedented (groan). BTW, you gonna be at the head shed next week?

Or, with emphasis added:

There has never been another time better in my living memory to be an airline pilot seeking employment at another airline/air line.

My Mom doesn’t merely go to college, she teaches college - and she went back in her fifties and went straight through to a master’s degree and got a job lecturing in the department, in fact. I doubt she regrets any of it, even if Cal Fac wages are simply unamazing. It’s never too late, and while I often, especially when I’m feeling particularly…miffed, shall we say…joke that someone can borrow my degrees as they haven’t done me any good, that’s wildly false. I remain convinced I would not have been hired at my first aviation job without my undergraduate education, and I still am convinced that Spirit, despite not requiring one at all (spoiler: slightly more than half of the pilot group still had a B.A. or a B.S. aaaaanyway), was impressed I was going to grad school nights/weekends. I am also convinced that I am effective outside of the flight deck because of both my undergraduate and graduate education.

I had the opportunity to speak to all three of my Mom’s history courses earlier in their semester, as one of the ‘older’ graduates of the University (2003 establishment), and while I’m sure some of those students were in that class to check boxes (god knows I did enough of that too) I also guarantee they will get something else out of every class they take outside of their major. It might not always be something written down in a learning outcome somewhere, but universities are wonderful places preparing people to participate as informed citizens in a republic.

This is more of a societal thing but it’s apropos to this thread too: Why do you think people are trying so hard to tear down colleges and universities and diminish their value (including some people who fly airplanes, themselves the embodiment of considerable technological progress and an amazing triumph of our first hundred years of slipping the surly bonds, and darn well better ought to know better)? It’s not accidental. An educated citizenry imbued with compassion and curiosity is the single best bulwark against tyranny there is, far moreso than any amount of firepower ever amassed or any opiate of the masses ever conceived.

Finally, too: Unless you’re an incredibly lucky unicorn like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, the latter of whom came from money in Seattle anyway and never had to worry about basic security, your best odds at social mobility come from getting a university education. And your best odds of being able to feed yourself if you do lose that First Class are going to come if you have that piece of paper, and preferably some skills and knowledge thereunto appertaining.

So I’m going to continue to unapologetically tell people who are seeking employment in this industry to go to college. Granted there’s a large smacking hint of “works for me” in this, but it doesn’t merely work for me—it’s worked for a lot of people. Even the guys that I worked with that majored in Fraternity Drinking, I mean, like, Business or whatever, at Florida State, and not ‘real’ disciplines.

This is a topic I can and have spent hours discussing and big picture I generally agree with you, but college shouldn't be a refuge for the high school graduate who doesn't know what to do with their life and pursues a field of study with no plan for what to do with it after graduating under a pile of student debt. There are plenty of 6 figure income jobs out there that don't require a degree; I can think of more than a dozen people I work with earning 150-250K that didn't go to college.

That being said, I don't run an airline and I (unfortunately) don't have several thousand resumes sitting on HR's desk to filter through.

So, if the minimum requirements say X hours, ATP, college degree, etc and you can't check all those boxes it's unreasonable to expect a call back offering a position. You wouldn't apply if you didn't have the time or certificates, so adhering to a personal opinion regarding the value of those other requirements isn't going to further career advancement. In any industry, when the hiring environment is highly competitive and the number of open seats is finite you have to do whatever it takes to stand out from the crowd.

I strongly believe in the value of higher education and that it generally contributes to a broader thinking and more well rounded society, but it shouldn't be a stopgap for lack of a plan. I also think the government should fund at least two year STEM associates programs or trade schools with a sprinkling of liberal arts courses worked into the curriculum. More education is never a bad thing, but we've been steadily pricing that option out of the grasp of the average person for the last 20+ years.