Considering joining the profession for good, could use advice

[invadertim]

I for one am glad your joining for good, far to many pilots join for evil...

 

[killbilly]

It's a time vs. money thing for the mid-40s career changer. Always.

Making a leap like this comes down to risk tolerance. You've people you answer to, a lifestyle at a given level you want to support. These are one side of the scale; the time to the outcome you desire is the other. Change one, you change the other.

No one can tell you for sure when the "right" time is to do this because only you and those dearest to you know what that looks like.

But here's the thing:

It will be the easiest thing to continue to find reasons not to pull the trigger or re-assess the risk looking for the right time. I'm not saying the following to be pithy or glib:

If you want to fly, you have to fly.

121 is the goal, but it's less immediately accessible right now than it was so some of the other options should be on the table, too. With your background, I'd strongly encourage you to look at the better 91 fractionals - NetJets, FlexJet are just two - to build your resume and experience - I think these are great options for you, mostly under the realm of compatibility, and they pay better than a regional, and likely bring you closer to TPIC which will probably start gaining greater value in the near future.

And you can keep instructing while working toward the next step. If your risk tolerance allows it, quit now and instruct full time. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Keep something in mind: you don't have an actual decision to make until you have a CJO in hand somewhere. Everything is theoretical up to that point. So lay out a path you want to follow and take as big a bite as your risk tolerance allows. If you can do things to reduce risk (better financial support) you increase your speed.

I could write pages and pages more about this, but I think this is a good starter. Happy to go into specific details/discussion if you want to, if you feel it is valuable. Call me any time, too - you have my number.

 

[bike21]

25 years ago dirt poor me would say full send. A bunch of us went in full steam ahead during and right after 9/11 life consequences be damned. That me would say do it right meow as 400 hours is nothing and you'll be in the right seat in no time. If you want this gig, jump in and get that seniority number.

Slightly more pragmatic and definitely creakier me says you're stable in a good job and a measured approach is a better idea. Building time while having savings and something to fall back is no doubt prudent.

But is that really what you want? Is too much prudence good?

I'd lean toward ripping the bandaid off and go full steam if this truly the life you want. There will be ups and downs but 25 years later I have no regrets.

 

[🦈💜]

Not to steal the thunder from https://jetcareers.com/forums/members/19294/, (not sure how to quote that name), but the thread title seemed appropriate.

Long time member, very rare topic poster. Currently working in the tech sales world for a big tech company. If you know me in person, you probably know that I've been ready to do something else for a while. It isn't lost on me that I have a job that lots of people would kill for in this business. I have enjoyed the career so far. I also don't want to do it for the rest of my life. And if I'm going to do something else, now is a better option than later. I have a mostly paid of house and can survive a substantial pay cut for a few years, but not forever.

I'm 45 years old, and have been flying since college. CFI/CFI-I/CFIG, C-ASEL/ASES/AMEL/Glider, ~1,100TT, 1st class medical, expired ATP written. Still teaching part time. Busted a CFI-Glider and C-AMEL ride, both involving to steep turns. No accidents/incidents/any other the of the bad boxes to check. Unless it is an offer I couldn't turn down, the goal is part 121 - not 135.

I'm aware that the hiring environment isn't what it was 18 months ago. I still have my day job, and it has seemed prudent to keep doing what I'm doing for now. The hours keep (slowly) adding to the logbook, and I continue to shake hands at industry events. This has been productive, even if they have been jobs that it hasn't made sense for me to take (I'm older, a combination of less flight time and even less money isn't going to work out long term).

Is there some point where it makes more sense to rip off the band aid and start flying full time? And if so, when is that? Or stick to the current plan, which is to keep the day job until 1,500 hours, quit, and get an ATP and a type in a sim, and instruct full time until the phone rings. Or something I haven't thought of?

Appreciate any feedback, and if you can let it go at least 10 posts without turning it into a political dumpster fire, thanks. Special thanks to everyone that also gives me advice now, but that's a pretty small group. You know who you are, and I sincerely appreciate it.

You say 121. Is there a specific type of flying you want to do?

Why do you want to make the move? Do you have a destination in mind, or is it all part of the journey?

Is your primary goal money, quality of life, or something less tangible?

Depending on where you end up, your date of hire, the market conditions, the airplane you're on, and what you're willing to do for it, this job can vary wildly. FWIW, if you go to any 121, you're likely to start on reserve, and somewhere likely far from where you live. (Let's say Chicago or JFK, for example)
Your schedule will look something like this: 4-6 days on reserve, followed by 2-3 days off, followed by 4-6 days on reserve, repeat ad infinitum. You will likely be commuting to a crashpad, unless you want to drop the dosh on an apartment or room (which I fully recommend). You'll likely need to commute in the night before your reserve block, and you often won't be able to commute home until the day after your reserve block. So two days off become two travel days with a night at home. (And that's the only time you're likely to spend at your house)

Whether you fly or not on reserve depends on a lot of things.

Believe me, there's a lot of positive to this career, and a lot of negative. You need to match what you want with what you're willing to give up for it, and figure out if that package fits. I will say that a lot of advice people give is based on single 20-somethings on an airline track, for better or worse, and will often lack nuance. (And the people giving it will often have trouble understanding that fact) The state of the industry is actually robust. Despite some majors citing demand shifts, travel demand is high and, in fact, impacted. The biggest issue at the moment (as far as I can tell) is fleet plans being disrupted by manufacturing issues.

What that means is though we're presently in a state of stagnation, growth will likely resume and increase rapidly as issues are resolved. That said, the state of the world is always an issue, and something that should be in the back of your head as a potential threat.

Ultimately, as you know, the 121 industry and career is not stable at the bottom. The further you get up the stack, the more stable it gets... but there's no guarantee that you'll make it that far. If you put everything on the line with the hopes of getting somewhere, you might find that you've mortgaged things you care deeply about for a future that isn't going to come. It takes a bit of a gambler's or optimist's mind to take that step. If you're more pessimistic/realistic (like me), I believe you will find the cautious approach has much lower risk outlay when you evaluate your options.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to reach out or call. I can give you all of the highs and lows from my perspective, if it would help.

Whatever you decide, I'm here for it.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

...

Ultimately, as you know, the 121 industry and career is not stable at the bottom. The further you get up the stack, the more stable it gets... but there's no guarantee that you'll make it that far. If you put everything on the line with the hopes of getting somewhere, you might find that you've mortgaged things you care deeply about for a future that isn't going to come. It takes a bit of a gambler's or optimist's mind to take that step. If you're more pessimistic/realistic (like me), I believe you will find the cautious approach has much lower risk outlay when you evaluate your options.

There is boom and bust in the tech business as well. It goes through massive hiring to massive layoffs, and pay is highly tied to what stock prices are doing. Not planning to do anything tomorrow, as I'm taking as much vacation as I can in July. But after that, the plan is to get to ATP minimums by the end of the year, which I can probably do while still at my current gig. And then see what the world looks like then.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

There is boom and bust in the tech business as well. It goes through massive hiring to massive layoffs, and pay is highly tied to what stock prices are doing. Not planning to do anything tomorrow, as I'm taking as much vacation as I can in July. But after that, the plan is to get to ATP minimums by the end of the year, which I can probably do while still at my current gig. And then see what the world looks like then.

Solid plan, imo.

 

[🦈💜]

There is boom and bust in the tech business as well. It goes through massive hiring to massive layoffs, and pay is highly tied to what stock prices are doing. Not planning to do anything tomorrow, as I'm taking as much vacation as I can in July. But after that, the plan is to geat to ATP minimums by the end of the year, which I can probably do while still at my current gig. And then see what the world looks like then.

To a point, the two industries are incomparable. In tech, with a strong base of knowledge, you have the ability to pivot, to contract, to work down if you need to, and to leverage your suite of contacts, friends in the industry, etc. I have people I've worked with in the past who want to bring me in, right now, this week. One of my friends has been trying to get me to quit the airlines for years to come back in and work with him in supercomputing.

This exists in aviation, too, but to a lesser degree, and the opportunities are fundamentally different. While I could get a job instructing right now, and have a friend of mine who would love to bring me on to fly back up in AK, there are only a few career-level 121s, and nobody's going to get you in there based on word of mouth.

In tech, you're a package—skills, experience, leadership, and potential. The teams are usually smaller, and the mission is more diverse. In the airlines, you're literally just a seniority number, for better or worse. And your level of experience, your ability to fly, the type of person you are, how much you know? None of that matters—only your seniority. If there's a downgrade, a flow-back, bankruptcy contracts, etc., you might go from being a lineholding captain to being a relatively junior FO working right up to the part 117 legal limits. (18 hours in a single day, for example: https://www.faa.gov/media/12116 ).

Ultimately, this sounds as if I'm trying to discourage you, but I'm not. I just think it's important to go in with your eyes open. I am working harder than I ever worked in tech, even in the job where I had a sleeping bag and pillow in my office. I'm not afraid of layoffs, but if you have a bad day in the sim, it can really jeopardize your career progression. A blown medical can end your career entirely. People like to cite time off and schedule flexibility, but as seen in the other thread, people are also saying that there is none at their major airlines either. So I'm not sure if this is just a purple cow, if people are being disingenuous, or if there's something else going on.

Either way, I don't want to discourage you. That's why I led with questions—what do you want from the career?

 

[Shiftace]

DO IT!

I am in a similar situation. Early 40s. Been flying on and off since 2010 - currently at a 141 school, where I teach ground and do some instruction. Used to be a techie before that but worked in higher ed, so that worked out for me. I am open to 135/91 operations but quite happy working in academia...

I would say full send it and get to 1,500. And then send out the apps.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I for one am glad your joining for good, far to many pilots join for evil...

I prefer to call it creative, constructive chaos…

 

[Autothrust Blue]

DO IT!

I am in a similar situation. Early 40s. Been flying on and off since 2010 - currently at a 141 school, where I teach ground and do some instruction. Used to be a techie before that but worked in higher ed, so that worked out for me. I am open to 135/91 operations but quite happy working in academia...

I would say full send it and get to 1,500. And then send out the apps.

If you wanna fly airplanes…

You need to fly airplanes.

@derg

 

[drunkenbeagle]

...
In tech, you're a package—skills, experience, leadership, and potential. The teams are usually smaller, and the mission is more diverse. In the airlines, you're literally just a seniority number, for better or worse. And your level of experience, your ability to fly, the type of person you are, how much you know? None of that matters—only your seniority. If there's a downgrade, a flow-back, bankruptcy contracts, etc., you might go from being a lineholding captain to being a relatively junior FO working right up to the part 117 legal limits. (18 hours in a single day, for example: https://www.faa.gov/media/12116 ).

Well, I would be pretty happy there is a limit. I was on call 24 hours, 365 days a year when I started here. Which sometimes meant being at my desk, on the phone for several days straight without sleep or a break. Happy to not have a pager anymore. The other downside of that life, I wasn't supposed to go out of cell phone coverage range without arranging it far in advance.

 

[JDean3204]

I say jump in with both feet and don’t look back. We mostly regret the things we don’t do vs the things we do.

Some on here lending good advice, but the movement is going to continue. Maybe never like the last two years, but a little movement, networking, a good attitude and some luck and you will be fine.

 

[🦈💜]

Well, I would be pretty happy there is a limit. I was on call 24 hours, 365 days a year when I started here. Which sometimes meant being at my desk, on the phone for several days straight without sleep or a break. Happy to not have a pager anymore. The other downside of that life, I wasn't supposed to go out of cell phone coverage range without arranging it far in advance.

I'm talking about 18 hours RAP+FDP. As in: You get called at hour 1, say 3am, with a 5am show. You get ready, drive to the airport, fly three legs over the next 14 hours, extend for two hours to work the last leg home, and you're not released from duty until 18 hours later. That is to say, 9pm. Back to your car around 9:45, then back home. At which point you have ten hours until you have to be back at the airport, bags packed, in uniform, inside security, ready to rock and roll for another 14+.

When you're on a block of long call reserve, you're on call 24 hours a day, 5-6 days in a block. Almost every day I work is at least 11-12 hours of work. Many (As in at least a third) are 13-14+.

If I didn't absolutely love flying, this job would be hell. I really want to make sure you understand what it can be.

 

[Ian_J]

I'm talking about 18 hours RAP+FDP. As in: You get called at hour 1, say 3am, with a 5am show. You get ready, drive to the airport, fly three legs over the next 14 hours, extend for two hours to work the last leg home, and you're not released from duty until 18 hours later. That is to say, 9pm. Back to your car around 9:45, then back home. At which point you have ten hours until you have to be back at the airport, bags packed, in uniform, inside security, ready to rock and roll for another 14+.

When you're on a block of long call reserve, you're on call 24 hours a day, 5-6 days in a block. Almost every day I work is at least 11-12 hours of work. Many (As in at least a third) are 13-14+.

If I didn't absolutely love flying, this job would be hell. I really want to make sure you understand what it can be.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would ever extend with that sort of schedule. I kinda remember you saying it had something to do with a lack of contract/union or something but damn. 117 is 117 and if you aren’t fit to fly (and I wouldn’t be in your examples) there’s no reason to extend. Plus, frequent extensions can make a company think that’s the norm and schedule right to the limits. No Bueno.

 

[🦈💜]

For the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would ever extend with that sort of schedule.

Our company considers extensions automatic, and require you to call out FTG if you "choose" not to accept it.

I kinda remember you saying it had something to do with a lack of contract/union or something but damn. 117 is 117 and if you aren’t fit to fly (and I wouldn’t be in your examples) there’s no reason to extend. Plus, frequent extensions can make a company think that’s the norm and schedule right to the limits. No Bueno.

We're already there.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

For the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would ever extend with that sort of schedule. I kinda remember you saying it had something to do with a lack of contract/union or something but damn.

I was thinking the same thing when I read that. You can say no, right?

 

[N826AW]

The hiring climate is different than it was 9 months ago and it will likely be different in another 9 months. But you can’t control airline hiring. Put yourself in the best position financially and professionally to make the change, and go for it.

My career change is pretty much complete. I have not regretted the decision once. That being said I put some money in the bank so I could enjoy my time as a CFI and it helps that I have a sugar mama too.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

You say 121. Is there a specific type of flying you want to do?

Why do you want to make the move? Do you have a destination in mind, or is it all part of the journey?

Is your primary goal money, quality of life, or something less tangible?

100% QOL. And less stress. And doing something different. And some degree of schedule flexibility. I mostly don't care about having weekends or holidays off. But at least being able to ask for the days off I care about matters a lot to me.

Type of flying? I'm not really in a position to choose right now, but 7 legs a day is not the end goal. I would be happy with a Florida base, or an east coast commute holding a line, or being reserve in Boston. I would probably learn to live with anything else. Hoping the odds are okay of getting one of those three in the next 20 years.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

The hiring climate is different than it was 9 months ago and it will likely be different in another 9 months. But you can’t control airline hiring. Put yourself in the best position financially and professionally to make the change, and go for it.

My career change is pretty much complete. I have not regretted the decision once. That being said I put some money in the bank so I could enjoy my time as a CFI and it helps that I have a sugar mama too.

Haven't heard a lot of "worst mistake I've made in my life." And it is a two way door, I can always go back to tech sales if I hate it or the employment market turns.

Not sure that I'll end up full time instructing at all, as I've already got a backlog of teaching to do and no many hours left. Though I've always wanted to pretend like I'm retired and spend a few weeks flying in circles over a shopping mall in a glider. Might do that for a few weeks

 

[derg]

Go fly. Knowing you personally, your “hustle” is way harder than my hustle, you’ve done really shoot and impactful sh— in your current profession and you’re still more excited about that purple airplane. You’re at a level in your current profession that if things don’t work out, you can resume your life of “I want to work in Europe, I want THIS much money and well,take it or take it”.

Go fly.