Colgan fatigue policy?

[USMC-SSGT]

I like when people say

"Well yes, the policy is stupid but....but...but....people are abusing it and it is not fair!"

IT IS CALLED THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS!

So Joe calls and tries to get released from reserve and they say no so he calls out fatigued. Put a memo in his file. Joe calls again with the same scenario a month or so later, now this is suspicious. Call him into the RCPs office and ask him what is going on and if everything is ok. If something still doesnt seem right you escalate and get him to MEM. If you find that he was unjust on a few occasions in calling in fatiqued you handle the problem.

I know, it is very stressful to actually have to handle a problem on a case by case basis but they are all paid enough and it is in their job descriptions.

 

[Nick]

Unfortunately I don't think that it will ever be a "no questions asked" situation, but it darn well shouldn't be this junk that Colgan is trying to force on its pilot group.

I agree.

A slight query as to the nature of the fatigue event is appropriate. Without that, how is the company to know how to prevent it from happening again (if it is something that they can control)?

- A hotel that often hosts conventions and huge wedding parties and has loud groups on the same floor as crews with a 5AM van time
- A trip that is just not built right
- etc.

Of course if the person's spouse calls them at 11PM informing them of some traumatic family event and they barely sleep that night, that is different.

Where I work, we had a pilot call in fatigued at the same point in a four-day trip that he was flying, three weeks in a row. The trip was the exact same thing each week. After the first two, the chief pilot met him in the jetway on the third one and they went to the crewroom to discuss it.

The company ended up sending him to the medical clinic where we have our drug tests and new hire screening to see what his problem was. Well, duh, the problem wasn't him, it was the absolutely horrendous trip he was on week after week and I did see the pairing at one time and it really was bad. So, good for him for making the call when he truly was fatigued.

 

[ZWflyer]

So Joe calls and tries to get released from reserve and they say no so he calls out fatigued. Put a memo in his file. Joe calls again with the same scenario a month or so later, now this is suspicious. Call him into the RCPs office and ask him what is going on and if everything is ok. If something still doesnt seem right you escalate and get him to MEM. If you find that he was unjust on a few occasions in calling in fatiqued you handle the problem.

Exactly. A common sense approach is all that is needed here. If someone starts calling in fatigued every month, then obviously they are probably abusing the system in place. However, a single fatigue call should not be cause for reprimand from the company.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Ya'll need a Fatigue review board like we have here at Eagle.

A FTG call goes in your file/record/whatever. You get docked whatever flying you don't do because of it, etc.

File with the MEC office to be reviewed. They sit down with the company and review a brief write up you did about why you were fatigued.

If they agree, (95% are legit) they pull the Fatigue out of your record. If the company has any culpability in the Fatigue call, you get your lost pay back, too.

I'm 3 for 3 so far.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Ya'll need a Fatigue review board like we have here at Eagle.

A FTG call goes in your file/record/whatever. You get docked whatever flying you don't do because of it, etc.

File with the MEC office to be reviewed. They sit down with the company and review a brief write up you did about why you were fatigued.

If they agree, (95% are legit) they pull the Fatigue out of your record. If the company has any culpability in the Fatigue call, you get your lost pay back, too.

I'm 3 for 3 so far.

That's not a bad idea. Or you can just do it like we do it... you drop the F-bomb and you're done. The ACP might poke at you a tad on your call to figure out the situation, but they can't do anything about it.

 

[subpilot]

That's not a bad idea. Or you can just do it like we do it... you drop the F-bomb and you're done. .

Does that call go into your permanent file? Do you still get paid?

If the system goes unchecked then a small percentage of people will abuse it and I think there should be a way to find those people on a case-by-case basis without punishing the rest of us who don't abuse the system.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I disagree. For once, we just need to get the information out to the public. ALPA needs to grow some brass ones and start ad campaigns about ACTUAL work conditions.

Those sorts of ad campaigns are ineffective, and usually turn lawmakers against you. We're on the cusp of new laws and regulations that will fix a majority of these problems, and rouge actions by a few could screw it all up. Bad idea.

 

[derg]

Those sorts of ad campaigns are ineffective, and usually turn lawmakers against you. We're on the cusp of new laws and regulations that will fix a majority of these problems, and rouge actions by a few could screw it all up. Bad idea.

Sadly, I think too many of our union bureaucrats always promise, "Hold tight! change is around the corner! Keep your powder dry!"

Positive change is always driven from the grassroots, not shuffled around on memos during meetings in Herndon.

 

[jtrain609]

Those sorts of ad campaigns are ineffective, and usually turn lawmakers against you. We're on the cusp of new laws and regulations that will fix a majority of these problems, and rouge actions by a few could screw it all up. Bad idea.

Hey I know where you're commin' from, and ima let you finish...but this is already on multiple public aviation forums.

The FAA doesn't live in a vacuum and there has to be an inspector SOMEWHERE that has ready about this policy, and all they've gotta do is call up Colgan's POI and say, "Dude check this out" and WHAM! Colgan's nuts are being slammed in a door.

Something about opening the Pandora's box comes to mind, being how out in the open this is.

Oh and that's not even if the Washington Post gets a hold of this. I mean can you imagine the headline?

"Colgan Airlines Management Team, the bastards behind 3407, now telling their pilots that they can't call in fatigued. How YOU and YOUR CHILDREN will die in a Canadian turboprop."

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Hey I know where you're commin' from, and ima let you finish...but this is already on multiple public aviation forums.

The FAA doesn't live in a vacuum and there has to be an inspector SOMEWHERE that has ready about this policy, and all they've gotta do is call up Colgan's POI and say, "Dude check this out" and WHAM! Colgan's nuts are being slammed in a door.

Something about opening the Pandora's box comes to mind, being how out in the open this is.

Oh and that's not even if the Washington Post gets a hold of this. I mean can you imagine the headline?

"Colgan Airlines Management Team, the bastards behind 3407, now telling their pilots that they can't call in fatigued. How YOU and YOUR CHILDREN will die in a Canadian turboprop."

I think I would cry tears of joy inside if I read that headline. We can only wish the public knew more, because the powers that be like to keep us muzzled.

If we don't take action now
We settle for nothing later
Settle for nothing now

 

[wick81]

I will say that regardless of the memo, I can't say that I'm worried about calling in fatigued, even if I did get more than 12 hours of rest the night before. I almost feel like it is an empty threat, at least as far as the pilots are concerned.

Getting the appropriate amount of rest is one of our responsibilities as a professional, but if for some reason I have one of those nights where I can't sleep for whatever reason (be it outside of my control, hotel noise etc.., or just one of those sleepless nights that we all have once in a while), then I feel completely justified not signing my name on the line that says I am physically fit for the flight. If I had more than 12 hours of rest and they decided to call me in the office, I would have no problem talking to them about it, and maybe this is putting to much faith in our CP's, but I'm pretty sure nothing would come of it.

But then again, I don't have a history of abusing the system nor do I plan to, because it is in place for a specific reason, not so i can leave a pairing early to go drink with my friends at the lake, or to get out of a reserve pairing.

The bigger problem here is the company issuing a blanket statement, when the problem needs to be addressed on an individual basis (note's in file etc.) as was already stated in this thread.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Sadly, I think too many of our union bureaucrats always promise, "Hold tight! change is around the corner! Keep your powder dry!"

Positive change is always driven from the grassroots, not shuffled around on memos during meetings in Herndon.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. Positive change is driven by smart politics. Grass roots action is good to spur leaders to take action, but grass roots action is not good to achieve the end result. Pilots want to pretend that they don't have to be political animals, but they do. This entire profession is about politics, and rash decisions don't make for good politics.

A good example was at my previous airline. The company had been trying to reinterpret a certain regulation (I won't get into details here). We were working behind the scenes with the FSDO to get a letter issued to the company telling them how it was supposed to be handled, which would have ended the practice. Right before this happened, one of our pilots decided that he was going to bypass the Association and go straight to the FAA hotline with a self-disclosure. Well, what happens when official complaints are made? Everything comes to a grinding halt at the lower levels because the higher-ups want to handle things their way and do their own investigations. As you can imagine, government investigations take some time, and they usually fall through the cracks and never get resolved. To the best of my knowledge, this was never resolved, because the POI that was going to resolve this issue with a simple letter to management got his hands tied and couldn't take action on his own. That's some wonderful "grass roots" action right there.

 

[derg]

Sorry man, I've been waiting for "smart politics" and bureaucratic solutions ever since 9/11/2001 where the ATA and RAA whipped our asses back to caveman-era pay and benefits and a lot of people that are paid phat wads of dues dollars sat on their hands, rearranged deck chairs, wound the clocks and came up with snappy slogans instead of concrete action.

I've been a proud member of ALPA since 1996 and we're dropping the ball again. We were at 10th and goal on the fatigue issue but you know that I know, and I know that you know that I know that they're picking the fangs out of the legislation.

We're supposed to be a union, not a bunch of bluetooth-wearing, blackberry-typing sports agents.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Sorry man, I've been waiting for "smart politics" and bureaucratic solutions ever since 9/11/2001 where the ATA and RAA whipped our asses back to caveman-era pay and benefits and a lot of people that are paid phat wads of dues dollars sat on their hands, rearranged deck chairs, wound the clocks and came up with snappy slogans instead of concrete action.

Sounds like you need new MEC leadership. But I think you already knew what I thought about that. The kind of "grass roots" action you need is members demanding that their MEC be replaced with pilots who have their same mentality, not with pilots that want to go to Richard Anderson's cocktail parties and be friends. There's a difference between politics and ass-kissing. Unfortunately, some leaders don't seem to realize that.

I've been a proud member of ALPA since 1996 and we're dropping the ball again. We were at 10th and goal on the fatigue issue but you know that I know, and I know that you know that I know that they're picking the fangs out of the legislation.

Actually, I think you're misinformed. The legislation and NPRM are expected to have lots of fangs. The ATA and RAA are outmatched on this one. The chickens have come home to roost.

We're supposed to be a union, not a bunch of bluetooth-wearing, blackberry-typing sports agents.

Yes, we are a union, and unions are about politics. You need smart politicians to achieve results, not a bunch of a neanderthals with baseball bats. The former will produce results, the latter may make you feel better, but it won't get you what you want.

 

[Rocketman99]

You sure about that? I thought we were supposed to have those new rules and regs for rest IN PLACE by the end of the year at the latest. That deadline passed a few days ago. Still nothing.

As usual, the political BS and corporations win again. You know damn well we're not going to see that positice change anymore. 34-oh-who? Buffawhere? Joe Public has already long forgotten if he ever really gave a deuce in the first place beyond that 2 dollar cheaper ticket..

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Wait and see.

 

[beechpilot]

1. If the crewmember has had a period of at least 12 hours rest prior to the start of the duty day.*

I can't seem to make sense of this one. Are they saying that if you have fulfilled your rest period of 12 hours that you can't call fatigue before the crew members' first flight of the day? Or does this mean that no matter what happens throughout the day that because you met the rest period of 12 hours before the day started that you can't call out? I could see maybe not allowing to call fatigue before the start of a duty day but with all that can happen (mx delays, deicing, ground stops, etc) pilots will get tired throughout the course of a day and calling fatigue becomes necessary.

2. If the crewmember is returning from days off.

Again, is this prior to the crew members' first flight of the day?

3. For future or downline flights. That is, a crewmember cannot declare “I’m going to be fatigued on my next flight”, or “I’m calling in fatigue for tomorrow”.

Seriously? Who plans on when they're going to be fatigued? I take it this one is to prevent people from over extending the use of the word.

 

[dasleben]

Does that call go into your permanent file? Do you still get paid?

If the system goes unchecked then a small percentage of people will abuse it and I think there should be a way to find those people on a case-by-case basis without punishing the rest of us who don't abuse the system.

If you even say the word "fatigued" at my company, you're done, no questions asked. And you're paid, no questions asked. It's done completely by the "honor system," and even if a few guys have taken advantage of it, it's still the safest system out there. There's no chief pilot breathing down your neck, no docked pay. Just go home and get some rest. This system works when dealing with a group of professional pilots. You'll always have the bad apples, but the vast majority will be honest about it.

 

[Nick]

You sure about that? I thought we were supposed to have those new rules and regs for rest IN PLACE by the end of the year at the latest. That deadline passed a few days ago. Still nothing.

As usual, the political BS and corporations win again. You know damn well we're not going to see that positice change anymore. 34-oh-who? Buffawhere? Joe Public has already long forgotten if he ever really gave a deuce in the first place beyond that 2 dollar cheaper ticket..

Just because it is late does not mean they are not working on it.

Plus, I would rather have them take their time and do it right because this is not going to happen again. If a few extra months to iron out discrepancies is what they need, so be it.

 

[kellwolf]

3. For future or downline flights. That is, a crewmember cannot declare “I’m going to be fatigued on my next flight”, or “I’m calling in fatigue for tomorrow”.

Seriously? Who plans on when they're going to be fatigued? I take it this one is to prevent people from over extending the use of the word.

You actually hear that a lot from reserve guys, believe it or not. You might not be able to forecast actual fatigue, but you can sure as hell identify a fatiguing SITUATION. It's best to just keep your mouth shut. Scheduling won't take it off, even if you tell them "Don't you think you're pushing it a bit much if I'm 29.8 in 7 days with min rest 3 nights in a row?"

My main beef is fatigue should NEVER, EVER be associated with finances. If you're tired, you're tired. It shouldn't be a matter of "Damn, I'm tired. But if I call in fatigued, I won't be able to pay my student loan payment this month." I'm looking at being around $240 short on my second paycheck this month thanks to a fatigue call last week. Unless I can magically get it worked out between payroll and the base manager from a hotel in TYS on Monday, I won't see that money until the middle of NEXT month. If it screws up my paycheck to the point I don't get the credit for what I flew over guarantee last month, that's even more $$$ out of my pocket.