CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
I wonder how the families of the pax of 3407 would feel about this. Pretty sad state of affairs.
Colgan fatigue policy?
- Thread starter jynxyjoe
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surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Great question. Might need to find a couple to raise some hell.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Here's the article in the Buffalo News:
Colgan is again tightening fatigue rules
Says more-lenient policy after crash is being abused
By Jerry Zremski
News Washington Bureau Chief
January 02, 2010, 11:19 PM /
WASHINGTON — Colgan Air, which operated the Continental Connection flight that crashed in Clarence last February, is once again getting tougher on pilots who say they are too tired to fly.
An internal memo sent to the company's pilots and flight attendants, dated Dec. 30, 2009, indicates that crew members have abused the more-lenient fatigue policy the company instituted after the crash, which claimed 50 lives.
"Over the past several months, we have maintained a "no questions asked' approach to fatigue calls in order to give pilots and flight attendants an ability to report a fatigue condition without any feeling of punishment or retribution," wrote Dan Morgan, vice president of safety and regulatory compliance at Colgan.
"However, over the past two months, the instance of fatigue calls with no valid reason for fatigue have increased to the point where frivolous fatigue calls are now the majority."
For that reason, the company is making three changes in its fatigue policy, Morgan said.
Crew members will no longer be allowed to call in fatigued if they had at least 12 hours rest prior to the start of their shift or if they are returning from days off. In addition, pilots will not be allowed to call in fatigued for future flights.
"That is, a crew member cannot declare "I'm going to be fatigued on my next flight,' or "I'm calling in fatigue for tomorrow,' " Morgan wrote.
Colgan pilots and sources close to the airline provided the memo to The Buffalo News, saying it proved that the airline had not taken seriously the lessons of Continental Connection Flight 3407.
"They had changed the policy in light of the crash, but now that things have been swept under the rug they are going back to their old ways," one Colgan pilot said.
Fatigue could have played a role in the Clarence crash given that federal investigators found that the pilot spent at least part of the previous night in the crew lounge at Newark International Airport while the co-pilot commuted to Newark on red-eye flights from her home in Seattle.
After the crash, Colgan shifted responsibility for its fatigue calls to the Safety Department, which, pilots said, took a much more reasonable approach than the chief pilot, who previously took such calls.
Joe F. Williams, a spokesman for Colgan's parent, Pinnacle Airlines, stressed that fatigue calls will continue to go to the Safety Department in wake of the changes announced this week.
"This is an enhancement of the policy that was revised earlier this year," he said. "We worked with our crews in developing this policy, and continue to work closely with our crews regarding enhancements."
It's clear that tired pilots will still be free to call in fatigued under the new policy, Williams added.
But Capt. John Prater, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, stressed that Colgan imposed the policy unilaterally and spelled it out in a memo that amounted to "intimidation."
Under the change, Colgan pilots may be scared to call in fatigued — even if they are too tired to fly, Prater said. "Even if [the fatigue policy] is being used wrongly, how many pilots are they scaring off from using it correctly?" Prater asked.
Colgan pilots privately acknowledged, however, that some company employees had been abusing the no-questions-asked fatigue policy instituted after the crash.
Colgan cited two recent examples of that abuse in the memo. A flight attendant had a 12 hour, 17 minute rest period between flights but still called in fatigued the next day.
And a crew member asked to be released from reserve assignment, and when that request was denied, the crew member called in fatigued a few minutes later.
"Although our fatigue policy has resulted in professional crew members recognizing and declaring true fatigue situations, the policy has also shown that when given an opportunity to demonstrate a lack of professionalism and maturity, a disappointing number of our crew members will do so," Morgan wrote.
Colgan implemented the changes immediately, but Morgan stressed that the company is working with its unions to develop a fatigue program. That program, which will include a review board process, will be in place no later than Feb. 15, he said.
Meanwhile, Morgan wrote: "Any further blatant abuse of the fatigue option will be addressed as a disciplinary action, and fatigue resulting from an improper use of rest periods or personal time off duty will be treated as missed trips," meaning the crew member won't be paid.
Members of Families of Continental Flight 3407 criticized the fatigue policy change.
"I would not think it is wise to categorically declare that fatigue calls following a period of rest will not be accepted," said Karen Eckert, who lost her sister, Beverly Eckert, in the crash. "I don't think any member of the flying public wants to be in a plane which is being flown by a pilot that called in to report that he or she was too fatigued to fly, but who is still flying the plane because their request was denied."
And Mike Loftus, a former Continental pilot who lost his daughter, Maddie, in the crash, said: "It still amazes me that their management group is unable to manage their airline. They are reactionary in nature, not what you would call insightful or forward-thinking. It is obvious they are still having morale problems — otherwise the abuse would not be a factor."
This summer, eight former or current pilots at Colgan or Pinnacle told The News that before the crash, the company routinely made it difficult for pilots to call in sick or tired.
The result, the pilots said, was that pilots would fly even though they knew they shouldn't.
"I have done it myself because I was afraid of the hassles I'd get" for missing work, a current Colgan pilot said at the time.
jzremski@buffnews.com
Colgan is again tightening fatigue rules
Says more-lenient policy after crash is being abused
By Jerry Zremski
News Washington Bureau Chief
January 02, 2010, 11:19 PM /
WASHINGTON — Colgan Air, which operated the Continental Connection flight that crashed in Clarence last February, is once again getting tougher on pilots who say they are too tired to fly.
An internal memo sent to the company's pilots and flight attendants, dated Dec. 30, 2009, indicates that crew members have abused the more-lenient fatigue policy the company instituted after the crash, which claimed 50 lives.
"Over the past several months, we have maintained a "no questions asked' approach to fatigue calls in order to give pilots and flight attendants an ability to report a fatigue condition without any feeling of punishment or retribution," wrote Dan Morgan, vice president of safety and regulatory compliance at Colgan.
"However, over the past two months, the instance of fatigue calls with no valid reason for fatigue have increased to the point where frivolous fatigue calls are now the majority."
For that reason, the company is making three changes in its fatigue policy, Morgan said.
Crew members will no longer be allowed to call in fatigued if they had at least 12 hours rest prior to the start of their shift or if they are returning from days off. In addition, pilots will not be allowed to call in fatigued for future flights.
"That is, a crew member cannot declare "I'm going to be fatigued on my next flight,' or "I'm calling in fatigue for tomorrow,' " Morgan wrote.
Colgan pilots and sources close to the airline provided the memo to The Buffalo News, saying it proved that the airline had not taken seriously the lessons of Continental Connection Flight 3407.
"They had changed the policy in light of the crash, but now that things have been swept under the rug they are going back to their old ways," one Colgan pilot said.
Fatigue could have played a role in the Clarence crash given that federal investigators found that the pilot spent at least part of the previous night in the crew lounge at Newark International Airport while the co-pilot commuted to Newark on red-eye flights from her home in Seattle.
After the crash, Colgan shifted responsibility for its fatigue calls to the Safety Department, which, pilots said, took a much more reasonable approach than the chief pilot, who previously took such calls.
Joe F. Williams, a spokesman for Colgan's parent, Pinnacle Airlines, stressed that fatigue calls will continue to go to the Safety Department in wake of the changes announced this week.
"This is an enhancement of the policy that was revised earlier this year," he said. "We worked with our crews in developing this policy, and continue to work closely with our crews regarding enhancements."
It's clear that tired pilots will still be free to call in fatigued under the new policy, Williams added.
But Capt. John Prater, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, stressed that Colgan imposed the policy unilaterally and spelled it out in a memo that amounted to "intimidation."
Under the change, Colgan pilots may be scared to call in fatigued — even if they are too tired to fly, Prater said. "Even if [the fatigue policy] is being used wrongly, how many pilots are they scaring off from using it correctly?" Prater asked.
Colgan pilots privately acknowledged, however, that some company employees had been abusing the no-questions-asked fatigue policy instituted after the crash.
Colgan cited two recent examples of that abuse in the memo. A flight attendant had a 12 hour, 17 minute rest period between flights but still called in fatigued the next day.
And a crew member asked to be released from reserve assignment, and when that request was denied, the crew member called in fatigued a few minutes later.
"Although our fatigue policy has resulted in professional crew members recognizing and declaring true fatigue situations, the policy has also shown that when given an opportunity to demonstrate a lack of professionalism and maturity, a disappointing number of our crew members will do so," Morgan wrote.
Colgan implemented the changes immediately, but Morgan stressed that the company is working with its unions to develop a fatigue program. That program, which will include a review board process, will be in place no later than Feb. 15, he said.
Meanwhile, Morgan wrote: "Any further blatant abuse of the fatigue option will be addressed as a disciplinary action, and fatigue resulting from an improper use of rest periods or personal time off duty will be treated as missed trips," meaning the crew member won't be paid.
Members of Families of Continental Flight 3407 criticized the fatigue policy change.
"I would not think it is wise to categorically declare that fatigue calls following a period of rest will not be accepted," said Karen Eckert, who lost her sister, Beverly Eckert, in the crash. "I don't think any member of the flying public wants to be in a plane which is being flown by a pilot that called in to report that he or she was too fatigued to fly, but who is still flying the plane because their request was denied."
And Mike Loftus, a former Continental pilot who lost his daughter, Maddie, in the crash, said: "It still amazes me that their management group is unable to manage their airline. They are reactionary in nature, not what you would call insightful or forward-thinking. It is obvious they are still having morale problems — otherwise the abuse would not be a factor."
This summer, eight former or current pilots at Colgan or Pinnacle told The News that before the crash, the company routinely made it difficult for pilots to call in sick or tired.
The result, the pilots said, was that pilots would fly even though they knew they shouldn't.
"I have done it myself because I was afraid of the hassles I'd get" for missing work, a current Colgan pilot said at the time.
jzremski@buffnews.com
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
A perfect example of what I was talking about with line pilots not talking to the news can be seen in this article with the pilots that admitted to the reporter that pilots were in fact abusing the fatigue system. Not good, and really hurts our PR case. It would have been a stronger story for us if only Captain Prater had commented.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I think they could probably have gotten the guy that asked for the reserve drop then called in fatigued on some sort of abuse clause tossed in the policy. Instead, management decides to institute a blanket policy because it's easier than going after the abusers. Fact is, the abusers are still going to abuse the policy. All it does is scare people that SHOULD be calling in fatigued into thinking they're gonna lose their jobs if they do. We've already got guys here that think they'll get fired if they call in fatigued after a day off, and we don't have this BS policy.....yet. As for the FA that had a 12 hour 7 minute overnight, we'd have to know the circumstances of her fatigue call. It's VERY possible to have an overnight of that length and still be fatigued. The problem lies in that airline management just looks at everything as numbers on paper, whether it be rest, duty times, schedules or turn times, then they expect it to all magically click into place in the real world. Our scheduling has been known to have a scheduled 15 minute turn time just to make a crew member (me) legal for duty limits.
RPM
Well-Known Member
The guy on reserve very well could have been fatigued as well, absolutely no way to say it's abuse as it doesn't state the circumstances.. and who is the company to say it's abuse anyway.. they have no idea if the person is tired or not, that's up to the individual.. this is total BS.. Every Airline needs to dump them as a feeder and they need to be shut down for negligent business practices.
Terrible article..
Terrible article..
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Two words people, and it's really this easy.
Cheap bastards.
Cheap bastards.
But it wouldn't have been a factually complete story then, would it?
I guess the next issue raised might well be related to whether a free press is more important than an airline pilot union's interests. Big picture time.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That's a matter of opinion. One pilot judging another pilot's fatigue call is not "fact."
sorrygottarunway
Well-Known Member
I agree with your post, but also feel that they need to put a stop to people abusing fatigue, especially our FA's! I flew a 3 day with 2 FAs that called fatigue as a team, not because they were tired, but because they didn't want to get stuck at an outstation (they predicted it would happen).
Then again, I was fatigued after just one flight YUL-EWR due to the 4 hour delay, the line for deicing, then the line for deicing making us miss our wheels-up time, then having to deice again with our new wheels up (went over our holdover), then finally launching for EWR. All that BS really gets to you, and I was ready to strangle the controller giving us the new wheels up. I just don't understand why they couldn't let us just leave. NY controllers, hire more staff, don't make it MY/PASSENGERS problem!
sorrygottarunway
Well-Known Member
Usually the bad apples continue being bad apples, and find themselves other ways of getting let-go. Its a slippery slope when abusing the system.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I agree, but to punish the entire pilot group for the bad apples is just poor management. We file FSRs for every fatigue call. If someone's filed 4 of them in the past 6 months, there's probably an issue. Either that person needs to get some help in the form of counseling or he's abusing the policy. To say "You can't call in fatigued under X conditions" is the lazy way out and doesn't do anything to stop the abuse. Like you said, those people will just find other ways to abuse the policy or other loopholes.
The guy on reserve that called in fatigued may have actually been fatigued. However, you HAVE to admit it's fishy that he called in fatigued immediately after trying to get the reserve dropped. It needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, management at PinnaColgan isn't good at that. They'd rather go with a blanket policy.
sorrygottarunway
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I think underlying this is the fact that they just need more manpower. They don't seem to have the manpower they need to take care of things as they are. Maybe its changing though, I don't know.
So not only does the flying public know that Colgan pilots are still flying fatigued, but now a disappointing number of them lack professionalism and maturity!
Even the grocery store I worked at in high school had a higher opinion of its employees, especially when dealing with the media! Only in aviation would management throw its employees under the bus in front of the public and expect good results. Someone needs to stop Colgan management from scaring prospective customers away.
All these posts and only 1 or 2 have really pointed to the source of all this trouble - the FA's having the same policy. Everyone knows that whether or not the FA's on 3407 were fatigued had NOTHING to do with the events of that night.
I would not be surprised at all if management started allowing Fa's to use the policy last summer so that they could now say, "see, we tried to have a no questions asked policy and it didn't work"
The IMSAFE checklist is for pilots, not FA's. I have friends that are fa's at majors, and they know nothing about fatigue policies -because they don't have them.
I would not be surprised at all if management started allowing Fa's to use the policy last summer so that they could now say, "see, we tried to have a no questions asked policy and it didn't work"
The IMSAFE checklist is for pilots, not FA's. I have friends that are fa's at majors, and they know nothing about fatigue policies -because they don't have them.
sherpa
Well-Known Member
maybe yes, maybe no. He could have been fatigued but wanted to drop the reserve as opposed to call fatigue. Then when he couldn't get it dropped he pulled the trigger and called out fatigued.
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
Yup. They pretty much force you to call out fatigued. No matter how many hints you give them that what is going on is not a safe situation, they will push you and push you until you throw out the F word.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
If I'm tired, I call in fatigued. I don't try to drop, swap or anything else. It was through the fault of the company and their insane scheduling that assumes we're autons that I'm fatigued, so let them deal with it. Since we have to fill out safety reports on it, that just gives more fuel to the fire when it comes to the FAA.
I think FAs SHOULD have some sort of fatigue policy, especially here. They push the reserve FAs WELL past the normal limits of human tolerance pretty often. Start reserve at 6 am, halfway through the day, they escalate you to RR until 10 pm, then you get called for a trip at 7 pm after you've been on home reserve since 6 am and RR since about noon. All totally legal. Fact is, the FAs are still part of the safety of the aircraft. I'd rather have a FA that isn't zonked and dragging if I have to do an evac.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
No good deed goes unpunished... I've learned that lesson.
Used to answer my phone... used to help out. Used to care.
I wish i still did all of the above.
If you try to help them out, it will burn you, so.. don't do it. just call it as it is, and go home.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
Its like my dad always used to tell rude passengers when he was the SFO CS manager for UA back in the day, "Flight attendants are there to save you, not to serve you."