Colgan fatigue policy?

[Seggy]

We are well aware of the new Fatigue Policy Colgan has implemented. On Monday we will have a much more in depth FastRead that will explain our views on this new policy. Any questions or concerns that arise until then please call the MEC Hotline at 1-877-MEC-CJC1.

Thank You,

Mark Segaloff
CJC MEC Chairman

 

[ppragman]

One of the perks of a small company

Me: Hey, I'm not coming in tomorrow
Dispatcher: Oh yeah? What's up?
Me: I'm sick/tired as hell/somethings up.
Dispatcher: Ok, we'll find someone to cover it.

Yeah there can be a little bit of the guilt trip, but not really. Its a lot harder for someone to give you a hard time about calling in sick or fatigued if they have to look you in the eye day after day. Bonus question, how many of you guys know your chief pilot on a first name basis? (At colgan that might be possible, it seems like a small community)

 

[surreal1221]

Small company or large company Pat, pilot pushing is still pilot pushing.

 

[ppragman]

Small company or large company Pat, pilot pushing is still pilot pushing.

Ohh you damn right it is, and I completely agree that its 'd up that they're doing this, regardless though in my experience, when I worked for a bigger outfit, I was pushed a lot harder than when I worked for a smaller outfit. The pushing at smaller outfits is different, and in some ways more insidious, its more personalized, as in guilt tripping you into going. But I've learned my lesson, and I don't play that game any more and only go when I feel its safe to go. If they want to fire me for exercising my best judgment, they can be my guest, but they won't because they know me on an individual level, and regard my decisions as being safe, and know I wouldn't lie to get out of work.

Bottom line is, if you don't feel safe to make the trip, then don't go. You don't have to be a dick about it (I've known guys who take the "I'M PIC I DO WHAT I WANT ROUTINE" a little too far) but by no means should you ever feel compelled to take a trip you don't feel comfortable taking, and if you can't sack up when you need to and refuse the trip on the basis of a legitimate safety issue, then you have no business being in the airplane in the first place.

I understand that some people have families they need to feed, and peoples definition of fatigue varies wildly, and that you'll be called a puss if you don't take the flight sometimes, but regardless, what's it worth to you? Fatigue is a funny thing. As long as everything is going right, the effects of fatigue are essentially invisible, and we comfortably skate through the day, but what about if you have an engine failure, a fire, a clod of ice on the wings and a stick shaker!? Flight and duty and rest rules were not developed for an easy day at the office, they were developed in case of a bad one. When the poo hits the fan, you want to be rested. I view flying fatigued as complacency.

 

[kellwolf]

They are tired of people calling out fatigued to make commutes, etc., but a lot of this is due to flight attendants....

Then make it an FA policy. If the FAs and pilots have two separate unions and contracts, they can sure as hell have two separate attendance policies. Until 3407, our FAs couldn't even call in fatigued. Even now, we've got some that afraid to call in fatigued even if they're dead on their feet after flying 100+ hours in a month. See, the FAs don't have FAR limits on their hours, and certain regionals really take advantage of that.

The problem is our collective management team assumes everyone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes rather than many are actually fatigued/sick. So, they implement a policy of fear. Problem is, the ones that are unscrupulous enough to lie to get out of a flight anyway aren't gonna change. They'll do so no matter what the policy is. What happens is you have good people with a genuine work ethic that don't want to call in fatigued or sick now thinking they'll get in trouble if they do. Here's how the fatigue policy top down from Pinnacle Corp SHOULD be:

1) Call in fatigued
2) CS takes you off FOR THE DAY (not 10 hours, the DAY. Last time I called in fatigued, they took me off for 10 hours and gave me a HSV overnight)
3) Fill out a flight safety report for tracking purposes
4) Instead of you guarantee being reduced by 3.75 (or the Colgan equivalent) by default, it comes out of your sick bank
5) No meeting with base management UNLESS you top X amount of fatigue calls in X time (number and times to be mutually determined by management and the union). If that happens, THEN you meet with base management to discover what the issues are.

What management doesn't realize is that most people WANT to come to work. It's why we have jobs, more or less. The problem comes when they start thinking management doesn't trust them, care about them or assume all their workers are lying. That's what we've got now, and that's why moral is so low here. The safety audit determined that one of the issues people had was trust in management. I wonder why? If management doesn't trust us, why and how can we trust THEM?

 

[ppragman]

Then make it an FA policy. If the FAs and pilots have two separate unions and contracts, they can sure as hell have two separate attendance policies. Until 3407, our FAs couldn't even call in fatigued. Even now, we've got some that afraid to call in fatigued even if they're dead on their feet after flying 100+ hours in a month. See, the FAs don't have FAR limits on their hours, and certain regionals really take advantage of that.

The problem is our collective management team assumes everyone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes rather than many are actually fatigued/sick. So, they implement a policy of fear. Problem is, the ones that are unscrupulous enough to lie to get out of a flight anyway aren't gonna change. They'll do so no matter what the policy is. What happens is you have good people with a genuine work ethic that don't want to call in fatigued or sick now thinking they'll get in trouble if they do. Here's how the fatigue policy top down from Pinnacle Corp SHOULD be:

1) Call in fatigued
2) CS takes you off FOR THE DAY (not 10 hours, the DAY. Last time I called in fatigued, they took me off for 10 hours and gave me a HSV overnight)
3) Fill out a flight safety report for tracking purposes
4) Instead of you guarantee being reduced by 3.75 (or the Colgan equivalent) by default, it comes out of your sick bank
5) No meeting with base management UNLESS you top X amount of fatigue calls in X time (number and times to be mutually determined by management and the union). If that happens, THEN you meet with base management to discover what the issues are.

What management doesn't realize is that most people WANT to come to work. It's why we have jobs, more or less. The problem comes when they start thinking management doesn't trust them, care about them or assume all their workers are lying. That's what we've got now, and that's why moral is so low here. The safety audit determined that one of the issues people had was trust in management. I wonder why? If management doesn't trust us, why and how can we trust THEM?

I took a management class a few semesters back, and I think that was called the X theory of management when management feels that people have to be coerced into working.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I took a management class a few semesters back, and I think that was called the X theory of management when management feels that people have to be coerced into working.

What's the term for when management thinks the company would work the best if they got rid of all the employees because they cost too much and are too inefficient?

 

[ppragman]

What's the term for when management thinks the company would work the best if they got rid of all the employees because they cost too much and are too inefficient?

I believe that's referred to as the "Dick-weed" school of management.

Seriously though, I feel for you, the regional rat race sounds painful. Also, I think that there's a large pilot group problem, the more guys you have, the more likely it is that you have a debby-downer, and I swear, once there's one Debby-downer, they infect others around them. Then everybody is pissed, and the rumors are flying.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I believe that's referred to as the "Dick-weed" school of management.

Seriously though, I feel for you, the regional rat race sounds painful. Also, I think that there's a large pilot group problem, the more guys you have, the more likely it is that you have a debby-downer, and I swear, once there's one Debby-downer, they infect others around them. Then everybody is pissed, and the rumors are flying.

Well, you'll find at my company the more grim it gets the less rumors. When things were bright there weren't any shortage of "guess what I heard". The "debby-downers" are mostly (in my opinion) everyone who hasn't got the rose glasses on. Nearly everyone knows the industry is a joke once we've been in it more than a year. It doesn't really infect anyone, it's just, after a while, you ask everyone senior to you how this career thing is and they give you the same answers.

I've got what I need out of this rat race, it's still paying the bills. I don't know how much longer I can watch it go on though. If the economy comes back I may not need to worry much, the resume is about as solid as it will get without a leap to the next level.

 

[derg]

That's total crap.

Looking at Rule #3, basically, if you're going to just barely "slide into home plate" and get rerouted on arrival, you can't say "I'm beat", you have to accept the assignment even though you're not in physiological condition to safely perform the flight?

Or Rule #2, if you had 12 hours of rest, but you're on leg six of eight, being delayed, deicing, maintenance problems and weather challenges, well, you came off of 12 hours of rest so, well, you're prohibited from calling in fatigued?

Am I reading this wrong? Someone needs to print out the new language and hand it to the FAA and the Colgan CMO.

 

[RPM]

4) Instead of you guarantee being reduced by 3.75 (or the Colgan equivalent) by default, it comes out of your sick bank

this is the only part I don't like..

If it's the companies fault you are fatigued, and a lot of times it is.. I don't want them stealing my earned sick time to cover it.

If I am fatigued from something on my own time.. then that is different and using sick time is fine.

 

[dasleben]

Fatigue calls need to be "no questions asked" and be fully paid at scheduled line value. That's the only way it won't be a financial decision versus what it should be: A decision made to increase safety.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Fatigue calls need to be "no questions asked" and be fully paid at scheduled line value. That's the only way it won't be a financial decision versus what it should be: A decision made to increase safety.

Not to jump up and down on my signature, but if we reduced the max duty day to 13 or 14 hours, wouldn't a LOT of this fatigue stuff dissipate? Then it might make sense for the company to be a little combative. If our FAA and industry require us to run at reduced rest twice every four day, and expect us to go up to (or exceed) our contract or FAA maxes all through the winter, shouldn't they just call this a cost of doing business.

I'd like to see a chart with fatigue calls in their relation to the season, granted that means snow up in Maine even though it is May, but I think it's perfectly logical to expect HIGHER call ins during the winter months with de-icing, late schedules, and working much more time in the dark than we enjoy during the summer months. I don't know about all of you, but this dark stuff at 5pm and the temps at jacket weather and below make me want to stay in bed all day.

 

[kellwolf]

this is the only part I don't like..

If it's the companies fault you are fatigued, and a lot of times it is.. I don't want them stealing my earned sick time to cover it.

If I am fatigued from something on my own time.. then that is different and using sick time is fine.

Oh no doubt. I agree with you. My proposal was a means of meeting the company half way. 'Course I also just found out that Colgan guys don't get their guarantee reduced at all if they call in fatigued, which burns me up. Fatigue isn't covered in our 99 agreement. It's a "company policy" that can change at will. Pretty much, so is our attendance policy. There is ZERO reason the company couldn't at least give us that, too.

 

[RPM]

Not to jump up and down on my signature, but if we reduced the max duty day to 13 or 14 hours, wouldn't a LOT of this fatigue stuff dissipate? .

I don't think 13-14 hours is enough of a reduction.. 13 hours with 8 hours flight time is still beyond the limits of safe.. especially when its coming off reduced rest or a late to early to late day swing changes which you cannot adjust too.. then add 6.5 hours behind a hotel door, right back into another long day and reduced rest all over again?

Personally, I can't switch flip/flop my sleep schedules from getting a late afternoon show time to getting up at 4am East coast time to another day where you get in at 1am, have reduced rest, schedule flop, then have to be asleep by 6 or 7pm to get your rest.. I can't sleep that way and I can't get to sleep when its 6 or 7pm, Im not 70 yrs old yet! I also can't sleep when I know I only have about 7hrs in the hotel.. After showering and eating.. wasting even more time, I find myself staring at the clock counting down the hours I have left "if" I fall asleep.. so I usually get only 2-3 hrs sleep. I know this isn't uncommon, because I hear it from others every day. Just because it says 8:30hrs rest on paper at some random point during a day, that doesn't mean anything to the average human body.

I think rest periods should be no less than 12 hours.. period, gives you time to settle in, relax, and actually rest. Just like any other normal job..

I know if they did actual tests on these reduced rests with ridiculous 14hr duty days and 7:59hr flight time scheduled they would find it's no different than a person being drunk/intoxicated.. you start to make small mistakes, judgment starts to slip, lack of focus, staring off into space, missing radio calls etc.. These are things I notice myself and my crew doing by the end of these type of trips, no telling what else goes on un-noticed..

 

[surreal1221]

It's cheaper to threaten your crews with punishment for calling in fatigued than to actually staff an airline properly to cover sick calls/fatigue calls/vacations/re-routes, etc.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Someone needs to print out the new language and hand it to the FAA and the Colgan CMO.

I would advise against this. Let Seggy and the rest of the MEC do their jobs. They're working on it. Going around the Association usually ends up causing negative consequences that nobody could foresee.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Hmm, if your fatigue call will not be accepted because of items 1,2or3.. Then I have a 3 item phone call list:

1) cs to call fatigued,
2) dc fsdo when fatigue call rejected
3) Buffalo news network to share your "pilot pushing" story.

By exercising #2 before 3 you "should" be covered by whistle-blowers protection

as you know buf news will come down on the FAA, FAA will come down on the next in line

 

[ZWflyer]

Fatigue calls need to be "no questions asked" and be fully paid at scheduled line value. That's the only way it won't be a financial decision versus what it should be: A decision made to increase safety.

Unfortunately I don't think that it will ever be a "no questions asked" situation, but it darn well shouldn't be this junk that Colgan is trying to force on its pilot group.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I would advise against this. Let Seggy and the rest of the MEC do their jobs. They're working on it. Going around the Association usually ends up causing negative consequences that nobody could foresee.

I disagree. For once, we just need to get the information out to the public. ALPA needs to grow some brass ones and start ad campaigns about ACTUAL work conditions.