Colgan ALPA ?

kellwolf said:
Pretty much ditto what JBUCrew said. Keep in mind, PCL's #1 aim right now is to protect our pilots on our seniority list from a whipsaw. If that means the Colgan guys might get stapled to the bottom.....well, let's just say it might actually happen. With ALPA, there would have been a process in place to merge the seniority lists. That's not there now. I'm pretty sure our scope grievance was held off a while to give Colgan a chance to give ALPA a run. It's still in the preliminary stages right now, and I doubt they'll hold back now. It's not a punishment thing towards the Colgan pilots for not voting ALPA, it's a protection thing for the PCL guys to keep Uncle Phil and Co from saying "Oh, you want more money? Well, these planes are gonna go to Colgan. Oh, and they'll fly them for this amount of $$$ or they'll find other jobs."

Oustation basing is probably gonna be a thing of the past eventually as well. Don't expect the crew scheduling, dispatch and mx to stay separate long, either. It costs money to keep that stuff separate. If they can save 10 cents by combinging them, they'll do it.

I know how crappy Pinnacle would be without our contract. In fact, the company takes advantage of guys that don't know the contract all the time. You'll see guys getting illegal assignments from scheduling on a daily basis around here, but they don't know any better. At Colgan, those assignements WOULDN'T be illegal, they'd just suck and you'd have to do them.
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Its a Giant TURD Sandwich. And when the s*** starts hitting the fan and it gets ugly around here, I want nothing to do with either company. See ya!
 
wheelsup said:
Honestly ALPA would have hindered the entire concept of Colgan. Colgan is, and always has, been a place to upgrade quick and get out. Look at the Colganites on here. Upgraded in a year. People were still on reserve as F/O's at my company after a year.

The whipsaw will actually be good for the Colgan people. They will be the ones getting the flying. ALPA is good for the majors but in reality it's tough having a "good" contract at a contract carrier. My $0.02. Sorry the drive didn't come thru though, I know people put a lot of effort into it. Hey, look at the bright side, at least you got free pizza!
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Are you serious? Wow. Just wow.

I fear for the future of this profession. I seriously do.
 
Wheels, Great lakes and Commutair are unionized. So much for the no union = quick upgrades idea.

With the amount of crap the Colgan guys delt with, the sale, and the "it's legal go fly it 91" attitude from management, I am somewhat shocked that it didn't pass.

The amount of apathy that the vote showed, shows Phil and co how apathetic the Colgan guys are with regards to a Whipsaw, merged list etc.

It is not good to have no protection in a job as replaceable as a pilot.

I'm sorry to say this to the stand up Colgan guys on here, but you guys are screwed, royally screwed.
 
OldTownPilot said:
Wheels, Great lakes and Commutair are unionized. So much for the no union = quick upgrades idea.
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My point wasn't that having a union will slow down upgrades, but the things the union will want will probably slow down upgrades (increase costs, company wins less RFP's, etc.). Great Lakes pretty much has the worst pay in the industry, heck they pay their 1st year 1900 captains what a Colgan FO makes second year, and only a dollar an hour more 2nd year. I'm pretty sure Commutair has no union and isn't much better.

I think it's a POSITIVE THING the guys at Colgan are trying to increase their QOL by going union. It's certainly necessary over there. I'm just not sure some people at Colgan really WANT to have a higher QOL...after all it's a place to get in and get out ASAP. That's what my point was. I'm not a union hater, believe me.

Keep in mind, I chose the "safe" route of higher QOL initially but longer upgrade, and I fully support the idea of a union. I once was threatened to be fired from a previous employer because they weren't paying overtime to the CFI's, and I was going to the state labor board about it. I recognized the value of a union early on in my career. BUT, I also know some folks who bit the bullet, went to a crappy company and rode it out, and are now going to the majors before I can even upgrade.

My comment about the whipsaw being good for Colgan, while tongue and cheek, was meant to calm these Colgan guys. They are worried the ^%#@ will hit the fan. I don't think it will. I think they will end up with the longer stick in this situation. I don't support whipsaws, alter egos, etc.
 
sigpilot said:
I continue to make bad choices
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sigpilot,

You really can't be too hard on yourself. You made the best decision you could based on the information you had available. Yes, this is unfortunate that the apathy of the Colgan pilot group as a collective whole didn't allow this to pass, but that doesn't mean all is lost. The one thing about this career is a good decision today probably looks like a bad decision tomorrow. Look at the guys who went to UPS back in the late 90's, compared to the guys who went to United. Fast forward 10 years, and those choices are gross opposites.

Republic might be a good move today, but that doesn't mean two or three years from now it would have been a good move in hindsight. Of course, the opposite could be true. You just don't know... you kind of have to sit back and enjoy the ride. Think about it: In a year you could be racking up that valuable PIC time to get out of this regional capacity purchase •-fest.
 
wheelsup said:
Again, big picture here. C'mon man, keep up with me :D.
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Ok, I'll try to keep up in the future! :) :hiya:

wheelsup said:
What's in store for you with Pinnacle? It almost looks like they want to keep them two separate companies. Let you guys do your thing and let the NWA side of things do theirs. Although ALPA didn't go thru, and it's disappointing, you do have some things to look forward to over there. Colgan was bought because Pinnacle wants to expand, and they want Colgan to do the expansion. It's a good place to be in right now.
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You know, the ONLY reason PCL would want to keep up seperate would be to use us against the PCL guys. That, in my opinion, is not a good thing. Furthermore, it's not something I want to be part of. I WILL NOT become an alter-ego employee. The expense of running two seperate operations just doesn't make good business sense. Additionally, according to the PCL guys around here, they're going to be working to protect their interests by filing greivences with the company.....rightfully so! Unfortunately, this would mean nothing good for us here at CJC.

I'm willing to give it a shot and continue to rack up as much time as possible here. But, once the cards get put on the table and it looks like we're going to be used as pawns in their contract resolution issues.......I'm out. I'm certainly not looking to go backwards in my career by moving to a different regional.....but I wouldn't rule it out vs. becoming part of a scab-type operation (which is most likely PCL's ultimate plan for us). :(
 
As long as Pinnacle is successful, you guys will be ALPA when you get over there. Even if you are stapled, I doubt many of you guys will be effected because no one at Pinnacle wants to go to BFE and fly a 1900 or Saab. Not only that, Pinnacle is in the midst of improving their contract so you get a double bonus. I'd stay positive, or else you'll just drive yourselves crazy. Also, because Pinnacle doesn't have FO's with enough time to upgrade, you guys might be able to slide into a higher paying RJ position if desired. I'm still maintaining my win-win for Pinnacle buying you guys, it will help your pilot groups future considerably IMO.

Bringing ALPA on board wouldn't have solved the alter-ego issue. GOjets is union, yet they are an alter ego.
 
wheelsup said:
As long as Pinnacle is successful, you guys will be ALPA when you get over there. Even if you are stapled, I doubt many of you guys will be effected because no one at Pinnacle wants to go to BFE and fly a 1900 or Saab. Not only that, Pinnacle is in the midst of improving their contract so you get a double bonus. I'd stay positive, or else you'll just drive yourselves crazy. Also, because Pinnacle doesn't have FO's with enough time to upgrade, you guys might be able to slide into a higher paying RJ position if desired. I'm still maintaining my win-win for Pinnacle buying you guys, it will help your pilot groups future considerably IMO.
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You really don't understand the magnitude of this situation. What happens if the PCL MEC is unsuccesful in their fences grievance? That will leave management with a wide-open loophole to start transferring airplanes to a non-union Colgan pilot group. In other words, Freedom or GoJet all over again. Don't assume that this will end in a staple-job. This could end in a massive whipsaw that pits both pilot groups against each other.

Bringing ALPA on board wouldn't have solved the alter-ego issue. GOjets is union, yet they are an alter ego.
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GoJet isn't ALPA. In fact, they aren't even part of the IBT division that normally represents airline pilots. They're represented by a local that usually deals with factory workers. The GoJet management pilots/scabs that got the GoJet operation started begged any division of the IBT to come represent them just so they could claim to be legitimate union members. Don't fall for the ploy.
 
And if you think you're going to get seniority protection in an ALPA/ALPA merger, just ask the next LCC East guy you meet how the AAA/AWA list merger went.

Be prepared to get your ear talked off...
 
there have been very few true mergers in airline history (from a corporate standpoint). Airways was a buyout, AA/TWA was a buyout, etc. The 'buyers' pilots have always fared better than the 'buyee' pilots. I would have to say the east guys fared better than the TWA guys. By far. I would MUCH rather have some protection from ALPA (no matter how jaded people are by them) than NO protection AT ALL. The next union drive in 363 days, I fear, will be too late for the Colgan pilots. They will already be stapled and displaced or in a massive whipsaw by then.
 
PCL_128 said:
You really don't understand the magnitude of this situation. What happens if the PCL MEC is unsuccesful in their fences grievance? That will leave management with a wide-open loophole to start transferring airplanes to a non-union Colgan pilot group.
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As opposed to what? Them transferring assets to a union Colgan pilot group? The end result would be the same. Pinnacle has to get Colgan pilots on its seniority list regardless if Colgan is unionized or not. When they do that, "Colgan" won't be colgan anymore, they'll be Pinnacle ALPA. But Colgan being ALPA or not wouldn't effect Pinnacles' ability to get them on one list, would it?

Are Colgan pilots opposed to being put on the Pinnacle seniority list? Is there a chance Pinnacle CAN'T get the Colgan guys on their list? I thought their contract required it? If management can keep them separate, then I agree, they're (Pinnacle pilots) screwed.
 
If our seniority list merged with PCL, I'm not sure how that would effect us at Colgan. If we get stapled to the bottom, but still remain two different companies in the sense that Colgan flies Props, PCL flies the RJ's, then I'm not sure it would hurt us too bad. But I don't really know. I'm just waiting to see what happens. I'm stuck here for a while anyway, and lets face it things aren't going to change overnight. I'd be pretty pissed off if I got put below PCL pilots that were hired after my date of hire, but who the hell knows with all of this.

All I know, is that Seggy, Corky and all those folks on the OC worked their tails off to try and improve things at Colgan. I didn't know exactly why we needed a union at first, but after a few months on the line, it became ever increasingly apparent. And even though I still don't have much of a knowledge about whats going on, I supported my fellow pilots. The work rules here suck, without a doubt. Maybe it will be easier to tolerate being home based in EWR though. Time will tell. If things get worse, then I'll make the dreaded move to another Regional.

I can't say I'm very happy with some of my fellow coworkers right now though. Those that didn't vote or voted against are going to get us run under the bus. I'm not happy about working with those types of people. You stand by your fellow aviators, not the corporate asswhipes that think they own you and pay you worse then a truck driver. :rolleyes:
 
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