Colgan ALPA ?
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wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I'm really surprised my comments went over everyone's heads. Brand X, while not very well liked, at least knows what I am talking about.
Gordon Bethune was quoted recently as saying (paraphrased) "Delta buying COMAIR was the worst thing they could have done. Contract feed is not meant to be owned by the mainline carrier, you cannot bid them against each other".
There will be no shortage of whipsaw carriers in the future, no matter who is unionized. This is probably one of the BEST TIMES in the history of aviation, save for the 50's and 60's, to get your TPIC and get out. The boat most likely will pass me by because I have no opportunity for TPIC here for a year or two from now, and then it'll take me two years to get competitive. I see the value in going to a low-end carrier and upgrading from the perspective of a senior FO at a quote/unquote "good" regional. Comair had a great contract, they put it ALL ON THE LINE and walked for 89 days. It was a killer contract and became a "career" company. Now look...the words "career" and "regional" do not go together.
Gordon Bethune was quoted recently as saying (paraphrased) "Delta buying COMAIR was the worst thing they could have done. Contract feed is not meant to be owned by the mainline carrier, you cannot bid them against each other".
There will be no shortage of whipsaw carriers in the future, no matter who is unionized. This is probably one of the BEST TIMES in the history of aviation, save for the 50's and 60's, to get your TPIC and get out. The boat most likely will pass me by because I have no opportunity for TPIC here for a year or two from now, and then it'll take me two years to get competitive. I see the value in going to a low-end carrier and upgrading from the perspective of a senior FO at a quote/unquote "good" regional. Comair had a great contract, they put it ALL ON THE LINE and walked for 89 days. It was a killer contract and became a "career" company. Now look...the words "career" and "regional" do not go together.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
This Colgan ALPA thing reminds me of those intervention tv program. Everyone around is telling them they need help, but they don't want it. This was the chance they had to get an all expense trip to rehab but instead they thumbed their nose and went out to get their next hit. The question is, will they end up in a wreck?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
The companies you pointed out had contracts shred in bankruptcy court, lost flying, were forced to take large risks in securing additional flying, or were bought out while beaten down. What was your point again???
Also, ALPA regional carriers also have some of the worst work rules and pay rates. ALPA doesn't solve anything in regards to that. Reference TSA, Pinnacle, and the all-favorite Mesa.
I AM a big fan of ALPA. But it's the employee group at the company that makes the difference. Mine is excellent, they are really, really good at union duties. But I don't have blinders on and think that what works here can work other places.
Velocipede
New Member
Not a wise choice of mentor.
Then, the obvious answer is to quit your job and get your butt over to Colgan. Every time you post, you reinforce your "I'm just in it for me." image. But, as they say, actions speak louder than words. We don't see you jumping ship anytime soon.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Haha I agree. But he does have valid points, just like you do with your jumpseat agenda, which isn't accepted well on here.
You misunderstood what I wrote. I see the value in it. In fact, I was invited to interview at Colgan in 2005. I turned them down. Was it a good move? I dunno.
To summarize then....
"You said ! He said ! They said !"
"The sky is falling ! The end is nigh! Eveyone's screwed!"
"You don't know what you're talking about ! Only I know what's right! I won't listen to reason or facts! I won't listen to lies and propaganda!"
"Kool-AID for all!"
"Look at him he's crapping himself in the corner!"
"You said ! He said ! They said !"
"The sky is falling ! The end is nigh! Eveyone's screwed!"
"You don't know what you're talking about ! Only I know what's right! I won't listen to reason or facts! I won't listen to lies and propaganda!"
"Kool-AID for all!"
"Look at him he's crapping himself in the corner!"
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Let's not forget that more than 50% of us DO want the help and voted for ALPA.
Additionally, there was a certain percentage of Conganites that 'wanted' representation and were just too apathetic to do anything about it.
Those who were apathetic or didn't vote because they didn't want representation will get NO SYMPATHY from me....enjoy the poopstorm that's coming our way!
anic: Unfortunately, we'll never really know who did/ didn't vote. I'm sure once the poop starts flying 'everyone' will be saying "yeah, I voted for ALPA" and they'll be lying through their teeth.It's too bad the NMB doesn't require each person to submit a Yes/ No vote instead of not voting counting as NO. That would eliminate the apathetic aspect of these votes. Place your vote before you pick up your paycheck!
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately Chris......If I was you, I would consider that option. Too bad you couldn't have just postponed your class date.
I never thought ALPA wouldn't pass from what I'd been hearing on the line.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
YGTBSM!!!! Sorry, I just can't subscribe to this line of thinking. BX does nothing but 'troll' on here. More people are realizing this as time goes by.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Let's see. XJT doesn't cave or concede when CAL takes planes, decides to think outside the box. Oh yeah, and they got Delta flying and a jetBlue contract (albeit temporary) WITHOUT giving wage concessions. I think that was conveniently forgotten.
We don't know if we "own" the Colgan flying or not. The greivance is still in process. I DO know that our union is going to do everything it can to protect our scope. If that means Swinglining (damn, I hate to use Brand X's schtick but it's damn fitting) Colgan, then that's what we may have to do. Having ALPA over there would have at least guaranteed the pilots a process for seniority list intergration. Now, they're pretty much at the mercy of our union, and probably an arbitrator. I can tell ya right now, there's a lot of "We don't wanna be whipsawed so do what you have to do" talk over here right now. Before it was "Let's see if they get ALPA." Now it's "we gotta protect ourselves."
As far as whipsawing being GOOD for someone? Hardly. We're trying to get good rates on the -900, but the only thing we've got to go on is a non-union carrier with a lot of Kool Aid, a regional with one of the worst contracts/pay rates in the industry and two formerly good carriers beat down by bankruptcy. Maybe if they were whipsawed we could get better rates on the -900? Hardly. Same goes for Q400s with Colgan. Now Horizon is gonna look at the other Q carriers in the industry (like Colgan and Lynx) and tell their pilots "Look, you're flying for a LOT more than the other guys. We want concessions." Think a whipsaw is gonna be good for those guys, too? Nope. The only thing that's gonna be good for the whipsaw is management's pockets when/if bigger airplanes wind up at Colgan for less pay.
If Air Whisky was getting whipsawed against someone, then there would be a WHOLE lot less $$$ in those "what you get as a two year regional FO" posts. Sure as hell wouldn't be more than $40K. But, hey. You might have more flying, right?
We don't know if we "own" the Colgan flying or not. The greivance is still in process. I DO know that our union is going to do everything it can to protect our scope. If that means Swinglining (damn, I hate to use Brand X's schtick but it's damn fitting) Colgan, then that's what we may have to do. Having ALPA over there would have at least guaranteed the pilots a process for seniority list intergration. Now, they're pretty much at the mercy of our union, and probably an arbitrator. I can tell ya right now, there's a lot of "We don't wanna be whipsawed so do what you have to do" talk over here right now. Before it was "Let's see if they get ALPA." Now it's "we gotta protect ourselves."
As far as whipsawing being GOOD for someone? Hardly. We're trying to get good rates on the -900, but the only thing we've got to go on is a non-union carrier with a lot of Kool Aid, a regional with one of the worst contracts/pay rates in the industry and two formerly good carriers beat down by bankruptcy. Maybe if they were whipsawed we could get better rates on the -900? Hardly. Same goes for Q400s with Colgan. Now Horizon is gonna look at the other Q carriers in the industry (like Colgan and Lynx) and tell their pilots "Look, you're flying for a LOT more than the other guys. We want concessions." Think a whipsaw is gonna be good for those guys, too? Nope. The only thing that's gonna be good for the whipsaw is management's pockets when/if bigger airplanes wind up at Colgan for less pay.
If Air Whisky was getting whipsawed against someone, then there would be a WHOLE lot less $$$ in those "what you get as a two year regional FO" posts. Sure as hell wouldn't be more than $40K. But, hey. You might have more flying, right?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Not all his points are good. Do you think you were able to upgrade at Colgan because it is the best place to work and most expensive feeder? No, pretty much the exact opposite. The CAL flying in Texas and future flying in Newark all helped the upward mobility of everyone on property.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
So, you're saying it's okay to have a crappy contract as long as you get a quick upgrade? 'Cause that's what it sounds like.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Actually there is. Pay is down 15% in addition to work rule downgrades such as Trip rig @ 4:1 instead of 3.5:1. That alone was worth around 15 hours in one month that I lost out on.
By whipped sawed, you don't perhaps mean against SkyWest and Mesa, do you? That is who got the UAL flying when AWAC was booted. So been there, done that, although I wasn't on property then. The only way the Company secured it's current contract is by buying 26% of US Airways.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I'm saying there is a trade off, and there is value to it. It's unfortunate the regionals have gotten so large, but that's life. You can sit at Eagle for 8 years as an F/O and watch life pass you by, you can go the other extreme, or find something in the middle.
I'm gonna be totally blunt here, Pinnacle's pay stinks. You felt there was a tradeoff in living at home/lower pay, and rapid upgrade vs. higher pay, commuting, and longer upgrade. See what I am getting at? Don't throw stones in glass houses. I would've made the same call in your shoes, so I'm not trying to be a hypocrite here, please don't think that, I'm not trying to be disrespectful.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Not throwing stones. If an industry lowering contract comes out, I'll vote 'no.' From what I've gathered from your statements here, you'd be all for a lower contract as long as you could get more flying and upgrade quicker. Sorry, I've got a family to feed, and I don't wanna be at the regionals forever. I agree the pay stinks, but that doesn't mean I want it to STAY that way. I sure as hell don't want to sacrifice any more pay or QOL in order to keep or secure more flying. If that means that I don't upgrade as quickly, that's fine. I'd rather upgrade a year or so later and not be in debt to my eyeballs than constantly be working deals with creditors in exchange for a few more seniority slots and shiny airplanes.
You knew going into Air Whisky it was going to be a good pay deal but not much growth. Sounds like you're regretting that decision now. Don't fault those of us that are fighting for better pay and work rules. Like I said earlier, XJT has managed to secure new contracts as well as enter talks with other airlines WITHOUT concessions. There's something to be said for performance and good management.
Sure a whipsaw might be "good" in the short term for Colgan, but it's a loser in the long term for the Colgan pilots and the indsustry as a whole.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
No, I don't advocate taking paycuts for growth. We're not on the same page.
XJT placed 10 aircraft with Delta and 8 at risk with them. This tells me they placed them at a rate under their negotiated CPA with CAL. I wouldn't say they "secured" contracts, more like found a home. I doubt others will share this thinking but it's hard to dispute the facts. We're getting off the beaten path now.
XJT placed 10 aircraft with Delta and 8 at risk with them. This tells me they placed them at a rate under their negotiated CPA with CAL. I wouldn't say they "secured" contracts, more like found a home. I doubt others will share this thinking but it's hard to dispute the facts. We're getting off the beaten path now.
Except for that one guy ... :crazy:
Mark, I wore my Colgan Pilots Organizing Committee polo shirt yesterday in honor of the vote and in anticipation of the celebration. I was quite disappointed by the news that Barry delivered via telephone call.
As disappointing as it is, it's important to keep a positive perspective. It didn't happen this time, but that doesn't mean you didn't learn valuable lessons and gain valuable experiences. Even the mistakes made in the effort provide knowledge that can be applied in future efforts. Take some time to reflect on the process, write it down while it's fresh on your mind, and undertake an effort to pass the "corporate knowledge" down to trusted young pilots that will follow in your footsteps. You may have plans to move on to bigger and better things, but don't miss the opportunity to mentor your replacements.
I'm sorry it didn't work out this time, but don't give up hope. Keep the faith.
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