CNN: Tower Closures

[tomokc]

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=175997119&m=175997100

Forgive the rant, but I’m tired of hearing how tower closures are going to make flying “less safe,” implying that the countryside will be littered with flaming wreckage starting this weekend. The link above is to an NPR story this morning and an interview with Yvette Aehle, Director of the Southwest Regional Airport (KABY), in which she describes how things will change for the worse, but then concedes at the end that most of her airport’s operations occur when their tower is closed from 8:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. (If it’s such a BFD, then why doesn't she operate their tower during busy hours instead of daylight hours?) Quotes:

• “It’s going to be quite challenging for pilots.” Watching for traffic isn't "quite challenging," an in-flight emergency is.
• “It’s (absence of towers) not unheard of.” Huh? The vast majority of airports in the US are uncontrolled.
• “They (pilots) know how to fly in and land on our runways.” Thank God they’re still teaching that in pilot school!
• “It’s like having a stop light, and then going to a flashing red light.” I seem to see a lot more accidents at stop lights than four-way flashing reds.

It's "less safe" to fly in IMC, but we do it all the time. It's "less safe" to fly in darkness than daylight. It's "less safe" to fly single pilot than two pilot. It's "less safe" to carry less than full fuel. It's "less safe" to land on a 9,000 foot runway instead of a 10,000 foot runway. It's "less safe" to fly without a parachute. It's "less safe" to...

She could have been worse, but I'm looking for someone who is better, someone who can instill some confidence in the system and pilots who operate in it.

Rant off.

 

[ScorpionStinger]

She pissed in your coffee didn't she!?

 

[tomokc]

I heard it BEFORE my coffee. That's probably part of it.

 

[tonyw]

I just saw this on the Washington Post website.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/video...d16d1c-9bd6-11e2-a941-a19bce7af755_video.html

Oh, my frigging GAWD!

I used to fly in and out of Frederick. Could it have used a control tower? Yes.

Is it the end of the world like these people are talking? No.

I remember getting everyone to switch their patterns so a couple of people who wanted to shoot approaches could do so. We all talked it out among ourselves, and gee, surprise, surprise, we did not turn into fireballs in the sky.

The biggest drawback to this would be the inability for people to get ADIZ squawks before leaving the ground, or having the controllers at Frederick talk to approach to hand people off. But what we did before they had a tower there was circle until we got the squawk. It's not the end of the world.

 

[tomokc]

KOUN (Norman - University of Oklahoma) is being kept open due to a financial commitment from the University of Oklahoma which owns the airport.

http://newsok.com/funding-from-the-...-tower-open-at-norman-airport/article/3779250

NORMAN — The University of Oklahoma will provide bridge funding to keep the air traffic control tower at Max Westheimer Airport open as federal budget cuts threaten to close towers at several Oklahoma airports this month.
Tuesday, the university announced it will use nonappropriated auxiliary funds to staff the tower during the hours of 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Monday through Saturday. OU owns the airport at 1700 Lexington Ave.
OU President David Boren said in a statement that maintaining the airport is essential for its aviation students.
“Our first concern is the safety of our student pilots. Max Westheimer is one of the busiest airports in Oklahoma. It has almost 60,000 takeoffs and landings annually, almost half the number of Oklahoma City's Will Rogers World Airport,” he said.
OU said the funding will be provided “until budget issues are resolved in Washington.”

 

[derg]

I can't wait to go to San Flowcisco again!

Are you gooooooooin' to San Floowwwwwciscooooo.

 

[Nick]

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=175997119&m=175997100

Forgive the rant, but I’m tired of hearing how tower closures are going to make flying “less safe,” implying that the countryside will be littered with flaming wreckage starting this weekend. The link above is to an NPR story this morning and an interview with Yvette Aehle, Director of the Southwest Regional Airport (KABY), in which she describes how things will change for the worse, but then concedes at the end that most of her airport’s operations occur when their tower is closed from 8:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. (If it’s such a BFD, then why doesn't she operate their tower during busy hours instead of daylight hours?) Quotes:

• “It’s going to be quite challenging for pilots.” Watching for traffic isn't "quite challenging," an in-flight emergency is.
• “It’s (absence of towers) not unheard of.” Huh? The vast majority of airports in the US are uncontrolled.
• “They (pilots) know how to fly in and land on our runways.” Thank God they’re still teaching that in pilot school!
• “It’s like having a stop light, and then going to a flashing red light.” I seem to see a lot more accidents at stop lights than four-way flashing reds.

It's "less safe" to fly in IMC, but we do it all the time. It's "less safe" to fly in darkness than daylight. It's "less safe" to fly single pilot than two pilot. It's "less safe" to carry less than full fuel. It's "less safe" to land on a 9,000 foot runway instead of a 10,000 foot runway. It's "less safe" to fly without a parachute. It's "less safe" to...


She could have been worse, but I'm looking for someone who is better, someone who can instill some confidence in the system and pilots who operate in it.

Rant off.

Nice rant and all, but do you think it's appropriate for the following places to possibly lose the mid-shift and therefore be uncontrolled from 23:00 to 07:00 bearing in mind the current traffic they have during those hours?

FAI
BHM
LIT
High Desert TRACON
FAT
ONT
SMF
APA
COS
DAB
FXE
JAX
Pensacola TRACON
PBI
BOI
DPA
MDW
PIA
FWA
HUF + TRACON
DSM
ICT
LEX
SHV
BGR
LAN
YIP
DLH
MKC
SGF
GTF
FAY
GSO
FAR
OMA
MHT
ACY
ABQ
RNO
ALB
BUF
ROC
SYR
CAK
DAY
TOL
YNG
OKC
TUL
ABE
AGC
AVP
MDT
SJU
CAE
CHS
BNA
TYS
ABI
AUS
CRP
ELP
FTW
LBB
ORF
RIC
ROA
BFI
GEG
MKE
CRW
HTS

 

[pullup]

BUF, absolutely. Not too much is going on during those hours.

 

[Nick]

BUF, absolutely. Not too much is going on during those hours.

I have to disagree.

I flew into BUF a month or two ago sometime between 11PM and midnight and we did a 20 mile final and we were #4 for the runway. NYC was a mess that day so there were flights from EWR, LGA, and JFK heading up late, among other stuff from probably PHL, CLT, DCA etc.

After the long layover we left early morning on the third day and the terminal was packed at 5AM. Plenty of flights out before 07:00, if that were to be the cutoff point at BUF if they lose the overnight shift controllers.

 

[ozziecat35]

The one time I've flown into BUF was a Jetblue flight that arrived right around 7 or 8...I couldn't believe how busy it was when we landed...every gate was full, plus a/c waiting.

 

[pullup]

I have to disagree.

I flew into BUF a month or two ago sometime between 11PM and midnight and we did a 20 mile final and we were #4 for the runway. NYC was a mess that day so there were flights from EWR, LGA, and JFK heading up late, among other stuff from probably PHL, CLT, DCA etc.

After the long layover we left early morning on the third day and the terminal was packed at 5AM. Plenty of flights out before 07:00, if that were to be the cutoff point at BUF if they lose the overnight shift controllers.

Oh sure there are flights during those hours but nothing heavy. Commercial flights usually end around midnight and start up again at 6:15.

 

[Nick]

Oh sure there are flights during those hours but nothing heavy. Commercial flights usually end around midnight and start up again at 6:15.

That's the thing though.

We were coming in a little after 11PM and we were #4 on final.

Without a control tower, would that be an acceptable way to run an airport as busy as BUF?

What kind of developing country air traffic management system would it be for a Delta MD-88, jetBlue E-190, Shuttle America E-170, and US Airways A-320 all have to be in a holding pattern waiting on a plane ahead of them to get on the ground and cancel IFR?

Same goes for 5-6AM. Holding for release for who knows how long.

The controllers are there for good reason at this time.

 

[wheelsup]

Nice rant and all, but do you think it's appropriate for the following places to possibly lose the mid-shift and therefore be uncontrolled from 23:00 to 07:00 bearing in mind the current traffic they have during those hours?

11 pm to 7 am kinda sucks. Had they done 12am to 0530am or something it would make a LOT more sense. Of some of those airports listed in the NE there are quite a few late arrivals and early departures - just look at say Philly for US Air, lots of flights out after 10 pm, that is the last bank.

There is almost zero traffic after midnight and before 5am or so, that could be cut with almost zero noticeable effect. But wait...if they do that then people might realize they don't really need the previous budget.

 

[Nick]

Said another way, an MD-88 doing one or two laps in a holding pattern waiting to get in is probably the same amount of money to staff the control tower all night.

 

[wheelsup]

I have to disagree.

I flew into BUF a month or two ago sometime between 11PM and midnight and we did a 20 mile final and we were #4 for the runway. NYC was a mess that day so there were flights from EWR, LGA, and JFK heading up late, among other stuff from probably PHL, CLT, DCA etc.

After the long layover we left early morning on the third day and the terminal was packed at 5AM. Plenty of flights out before 07:00, if that were to be the cutoff point at BUF if they lose the overnight shift controllers.

I was going into Newport News with a Frontier Airbus, a Delta MD8X, and us. Only thing that screwed it up was Frontier didn't think to cancel their IFR, and for us we must have positive contact with our ops before we can cancel IFR who were on the ramp waiting for us. So it can work.

 

[wheelsup]

Said another way, an MD-88 doing one or two laps in a holding pattern waiting to get in is probably the same amount of money to staff the control tower all night.

Rough estimate $650 per controller per day, how many controllers are needed for approach and tower ops?

 

[tomokc]

Nice rant and all, but do you think it's appropriate for the following places to possibly lose the mid-shift and therefore be uncontrolled from 23:00 to 07:00 bearing in mind the current traffic they have during those hours?

I think they should staff for the demand, not the time of day. I was surprised to hear her say that their tower is already closed at night when peak demand occurs. If they're paying to staff the tower, then staff it appropriately.

 

[tomokc]

This is apples and oranges, but do you ever go to airport fly-ins where you've got 150 arrivals in a three-hour period without a tower? It's all GA weekend warriors clogging the freq with "any traffic please advise," but there's little metal being bent or fistfights on the ramp after landing.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Nice rant and all, but do you think it's appropriate for the following places to possibly lose the mid-shift and therefore be uncontrolled from 23:00 to 07:00 bearing in mind the current traffic they have during those hours?

FAI
BHM
LIT
High Desert TRACON
FAT
ONT
SMF
APA
COS
DAB
FXE
JAX
Pensacola TRACON
PBI
BOI
DPA
MDW
PIA
FWA
HUF + TRACON
DSM
ICT
LEX
SHV
BGR
LAN
YIP
DLH
MKC
SGF
GTF
FAY
GSO
FAR
OMA
MHT
ACY
ABQ
RNO
ALB
BUF
ROC
SYR
CAK
DAY
TOL
YNG
OKC
TUL
ABE
AGC
AVP
MDT
SJU
CAE
CHS
BNA
TYS
ABI
AUS
CRP
ELP
FTW
LBB
ORF
RIC
ROA
BFI
GEG
MKE
CRW
HTS

Midshift SMF? Sure. Not lots happening there.

And having been to Peoria, it's unconscionable that they have a TRACON

 

[jtrain609]

In looking at that list, it's a whole bunch of sleepy airports without a ton of traffic.

Said another way, an MD-88 doing one or two laps in a holding pattern waiting to get in is probably the same amount of money to staff the control tower all night.

Then Delta can cut a check to the city to keep the tower open. The government isn't paying for Delta's gas, and government waste and excess is out of control. Cuts need to be made, and almost every airport on this list is a sleepy airport with almost no traffic.