Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
TRACON consolidation of FAT into Norcal and Bakersfield into Socal is pretty logical too.
CNN: Tower Closures
- Thread starter n57flyguy
- Start date
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Question is I these cities really have the money to keep the towers open.
BFM will get interesting with all that airbus traffic and international traffic.
Also if anyone interested....AOPA Free Webinar
Nontowered Airport Operations Refresher
Thursday April 4th
08:00 PM Eastern
07:00 PM Central, 06:00 PM Mountain, 05:00 PM Pacific
BFM will get interesting with all that airbus traffic and international traffic.
Also if anyone interested....AOPA Free Webinar
Nontowered Airport Operations Refresher
Thursday April 4th
08:00 PM Eastern
07:00 PM Central, 06:00 PM Mountain, 05:00 PM Pacific
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I have mixed feeling about ONT. UPS has a big push in late at night and out early in the morning with like 10 arrivals and 10 departures. I think we could keep from hitting each other fine but the workload for Socal would go up and the resulting slowdown would be unacceptable for UPS. I could see them paying to staff the tower to keep their ONT sort flowing smoothly. Plus, it would take a lot of "pilot cooperation" to make the no tower operation work. I think they would rather pay to staff the tower....
Nick
Well-Known Member
I agree that government waste needs to be eliminated but is it unreasonable for the airlines to expect the fees and taxes that they already pay BUF to at least have a control tower open starting at, say, 5AM?
Here is what flightaware shows for the BUF example in the morning. If midshift at this airport is 23:00-07:00, I can't see the departures at 6AM getting out without a bunch of them waiting 20-30 minutes.
How about all of these upstate NY places having snow removal going on?
Snowplows trying to keep taxiways cleared, trying to keep runways cleared, all driving around in the dark in the early morning hours, with nobody actually running the show as half a dozen jets pushback and get ready to head out.
The fact that money needs to be saved where it is possible is perfectly fine. It's just absolutely insane that the FAA's plan is to simply cut stuff out with no real plan other than to see what happens and see how it works, and hope for the best.
Is this the best they can do?
genot
Well-Known Member
You need two at all times, even if tower/approach are combined being worked by one controller.
Also, your estimate for costs is a little off since you're speaking of BUF. The cost for BOTH controllers would be about $650 per midnight shift. $650 a day is Houston TRACON territory.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
This.
NEXGEN will do absolutely nothing to increase capacity where it is needed most...IE runway capacity at airports.
Look at ATL during a peak time. The current system could probably handle far more capacity in the airspace, but there is simply no physical way to cram more airplanes onto the pavement. Back in the day, when MSP was a two runway operation, they'd run departures and arrivals off both runways. One airplane was touching down mere seconds after the first had lifted off. NEXGEN does absolutely nothing to increase concrete space, which is the primary bottleneck. It simply takes X amount of time to land and clear the runway, or for someone to get into position. NEXGEN will do nothing to eliminate wake turbulence requirements.
Even in places with bizarre and complex airspace issues, such as NYC, the complexity is driven not by capacity restraints, but by political tinkering in the process. Several years ago, they had reworked all of the SIDS/STARS into NYC to smooth them out, but the NIMBYS on Long Island went absolutely bat •, and the whole thing was put into re-wind.
All one needs to do is look at the TSA, and figure out that any agency put in place to collect new fees would:
1) Absorb most of the fees in administrative costs
2) Like any government agencies, have an insatiable need to grow it's bloated self
3) Increase the size and scope of the fees to cover 1 and 2.
If you are a small airplane owner, you WILL pay user fees, no matter how many times they promise otherwise.
Don't forget, most current money into the aviation trust fund is there by fuel taxes (which airlines are exempt...the feds get their pound of flesh from them via PFCs and ticket taxes). You fly more, you pay more. But God, forbid, you can't keep a simple system like that.
Take a look at GA in Europe. Nuff said.
Richman
amorris311
Well-Known Member
Has anyone thought about the jepp revisions that we are going to have to do? I'm pissed just from that standpoint.
genot
Well-Known Member
Excellent point I hadn't thought about. I'm seeing quite a few up downs on the list. In my stand alone TRACON we have 3 towers that close nightly and one that closes on holidays. I have RTR access and there are established procedures for snow removal communications and how we coordinate inbound traffic with the plows. The center we'd release the airspace to has no access to these RTRs and no procedures in place. The same situation will be true in the closing facilities.
I've worked as an airfield supervisor for an international airport in the north east. Generally the plow drivers and supervisors are good, hardworking people. Their training however in aviation specific areas is for most, lacking in my experience. My last recurrent training as an airfield supervisor was two days long and spent exactly 15 minutes covering anything aviation specific. More time was spent on the proper way to position a ladder. In those 15 minutes they showed pictures of aircraft that typically fly in and handed us flashcards or what a taxiway sign looks like.
Shortly after the FAA told me I'd been hired (on paper at least) I went to a snow removal conference in BUF hosted by the AAAE. The first night there at the bar sitting with my boss and our CEO I was introduced to the director of a huge class B international airport in New England. His words of advice to me were no pilot cares about braking action, this conference is a scam. We argued and he told me even a turbo prop could stop in nil using Beta. I'm not a professional pilot, I have no experience with beta, so maybe he was correct.
What I do know is in the conditions you described you may very well be on unicom with a plow driver who has been on duty for the last 16 hours who has zero experience in working without a tower.
Nick
Well-Known Member
I wish he could have been on the jumpseat when I landed in Edmonton last month with NEBC_3000 (or whatever his screename is, haha) and needed about 7000' to stop. Max reverse, brake pedals all the way to the limit...couldn't even make the turnoff at the 5000-6000' area. It was a very long runway so the braking action reports we had indicated we were fine to land, but 'fair' in the touchdown zone leading to 'poor' a bit further down really shuts down his theory that "no pilot cares about braking action."
You can print this post out and give it to him to read -- in fact, please do.
That is true, when you look at the towers as a stand alone entity - which they basically are...when they are open.
However, when they close the IFR services (relaying the clearance, issuing and blocking the airport for the release, blocking the airport waiting on a cancel, receiving and relaying the cancel, etc) are all delegated to another controller.
Now multiply that increased workload for every single IFR arrival/departure (not to mention the delays for the one in/one out) by the number of towers that are no longer providing the services in their airspace and rest it squarely on the shoulders of a radar controller who already works level 10+ traffic...but is now doing so with drastically reduced staffing due to furlough.
See how ugly that is?
Does tower ABC really do a ton of midnight ops? No, individually they may not. However, they do play a critical role in the efficiency of the NAS as a collective group. When the plug is pulled simultaneously it will be felt across the board, and there is no way around it...
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
How'd you come up with $650 is for both?
Including beni's I'm guessing around 150k/yr per controller. This includes pay, medical, and retirement (pension). Two controllers are $300k, how many days do they work? I estimated something like 19 or so average including vacation days/sick days per month. Getting around $1300 per day for both controllers.
genot
Well-Known Member
I hadn't included benefits because the FAA's staffing policy is based on low and high range numbers of controllers. Eliminating a mid shift in most of those facilities and adjusting the range accordingly would still find most of those facilities within staffing ranges so you wouldn't be eliminating many positions at all. I'd be willing to bet more would still be short than would have an excess controller.
I was interested though in the numbers. Your estimate is in line with a senior controller at a level 8 with more than rest of US locality such as BUF. That's probably the highest end of any facility on the list. To be fair, for every controller being pulled off of a mid at that pay level there is another pulled off of a mid making just above half that.
genot
Well-Known Member
Hell, Im just interested in the 19 days a month. That happens? Really?
Good point. I'm waiting with bated breath to see how the 6/10 facilities will fare. I'm sure my Prime Time in September is going to be denied after being approved, which is fine because had I bought the tickets I couldn't afford them now. I'll be waving orange cones on a street corner to make up the lost income on my furlough days.
FWIW this is the cost of paying for tower controllers at KOUN (Norman - University of Oklahoma) according to a story in this morning's Daily Oklahoman:
"The university plans to provide bridge funding — about $38,000 a month — to pay for the tower's current staff, said OU spokeswoman Catherine Bishop. That money comes from auxiliary funds, including fees paid to University Printing Services and the university's motor pool.
That funding will keep the tower open from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Monday through Saturday. Currently, the tower operates from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day."
"The university plans to provide bridge funding — about $38,000 a month — to pay for the tower's current staff, said OU spokeswoman Catherine Bishop. That money comes from auxiliary funds, including fees paid to University Printing Services and the university's motor pool.
That funding will keep the tower open from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Monday through Saturday. Currently, the tower operates from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day."
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
tomokc said:
So do they pay the FAA to keep it open if do they become University employees?
Either option is a little messy, but I suspect that the university will pay the federal government directly. But...is a contract signed, do they pay only direct costs, what about pension contributions, sick leave, PTO, overtime...? And what about liability issues if a controller makes a mistake?
scooter2525
Very well Member
motormadness24
Well-Known Member
So the saga continues. Now the FAA says closing these towers is silly and they want to think about it some more, or at least until June.
http://www.wibw.com/home/localnews/...ng-Airport-Closures-Until-June-201656191.html
http://www.wibw.com/home/localnews/...ng-Airport-Closures-Until-June-201656191.html
