In my opinion, I think CNN treated it with kid's gloves.
I truly believe if the last few crashes involved ERAU alumni, there would be a much higher level of scrutiny.
CNN reviews Gulfstream Academy
- Thread starter moxiepilot
- Start date
In my opinion, I think CNN treated it with kid's gloves.
I truly believe if the last few crashes involved ERAU alumni, there would be a much higher level of scrutiny.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
I hear ya, and I think you're right. My point is that if we can make GIA unpopular enough during the shortage of students right now, maybe they'll close up shop. We may not permanently change the attitudes of the latest wannabes, but economic pressure might cut them off at the pass.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
It's GIA getting roasted because they've produced 5 of the 6 pilots involved in the last three regional airline wrecks.
I think hiring practices of the last couple of years were horrible for the safety of airlines and the overall professionalism and level of compensation in the regional industry. GIA is an entirely different level of crap, though. To me, there's strong implications about the overall attitude and approach to aviation of someone who is willing to pay to work a job that a pilot should be getting paid to do...and that attitude sets those guys apart from pilots who get merely get hired with a wet commercial.
Additionally, it might be good for having a discussion about buying credentials.
Here's my primary beef with the program. Most regional pilots in the right seat are people that the company screened, trained and (for the most part) survived probation.
On the other hand, if you come with cash-in-hand, I'll bet you a dollar you're going to at least survive your 250 hours because you're a customer.
If I had a sandwich shop and the guy who was slicing the rolls paid me a fill of cash to work in my store for three months, shows up on time but does an over all below average job, I know that after three months I can wash my hands of him and he's someone else's problem, well I run a low margin business, I need to keep my books in order and cash flow is cash flow.
The next organization that hires my bread slicer only thinks, "Wow, this cat's got three months experience over at Doug's Sandwich Shoppe! Awesome, come right it!"
Now if four or five sandwich incidents in the industry involve with my former "employees", especially when they represent a small minority of all sandwich workers in the delicatessen industry, I need to be investigated.
Gulfstream Academy graduates are purchasing credentials.
All of 'em? No. But considering the statistics, I can't convince myself that it's not the equivalent of a Bahamian Medical School.
Here's my primary beef with the program. Most regional pilots in the right seat are people that the company screened, trained and (for the most part) survived probation.
On the other hand, if you come with cash-in-hand, I'll bet you a dollar you're going to at least survive your 250 hours because you're a customer.
If I had a sandwich shop and the guy who was slicing the rolls paid me a fill of cash to work in my store for three months, shows up on time but does an over all below average job, I know that after three months I can wash my hands of him and he's someone else's problem, well I run a low margin business, I need to keep my books in order and cash flow is cash flow.
The next organization that hires my bread slicer only thinks, "Wow, this cat's got three months experience over at Doug's Sandwich Shoppe! Awesome, come right it!"
Now if four or five sandwich incidents in the industry involve with my former "employees", especially when they represent a small minority of all sandwich workers in the delicatessen industry, I need to be investigated.
Gulfstream Academy graduates are purchasing credentials.
All of 'em? No. But considering the statistics, I can't convince myself that it's not the equivalent of a Bahamian Medical School.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
5? I thought it was just 4, Both Pinnacle pilots, the Comair FO and the Colgan CA?
Granted 66% is still a ridiculously high number
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Are they including that seaplane that went down in Florida?
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah. OK, 4 of 6. Still not good.
That's a good way to put it. They aren't necessarily purchasing experience, because who knows how much they actually gain from it.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
There was no pilot error component there, though.
I've always wondered about fast track programs, probably because I just don't understand how they run their ops. I know they're in it to make money just like everyone else.
I chose to stretch my training out over several years mainly because of college and I've always had a part time job. I think it was a good experience for me to take a few months, not 30 days, to get my PPL back in the day.
The private/instrument/commercial ratings are the time when a pilot is developing his/her sense of judgment and shouldn't be rushed. You can't fully understand ADM and how it really works in a 30 day program. In my opinion if you're going to fast track something it should be an add-on rating.
I chose to stretch my training out over several years mainly because of college and I've always had a part time job. I think it was a good experience for me to take a few months, not 30 days, to get my PPL back in the day.
The private/instrument/commercial ratings are the time when a pilot is developing his/her sense of judgment and shouldn't be rushed. You can't fully understand ADM and how it really works in a 30 day program. In my opinion if you're going to fast track something it should be an add-on rating.
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
So its kinda like staying at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
Actually, it's four, not five. (two on the Pinnacle CRJ-900, FO on Comair, and Captain of Colgan).
Here's a better statistic: two of the last three regional crashes were Pinnacle owned or operated (Pinnacle and Colgan), with 4 of 6 pilots being Pinnacle (Colgan) trained: that's 66% percent of the pilots involved in the last three wrecks, and 66% percent of the last three wrecked regional airframes. Where is the uproar about Pinnacle and its training?
And remember, all of these pilots were THOUSANDS of hours removed from Gulfstream, and all had gone through Comair, Colgan, and/or Pinnacle training, before their respective wrecks.
Number of Gulfstream airline crashes? Zero.
But it's fun to beat up on Gulfstream, right?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Lol. Brutal.
edit: I'm just laughing at the shock value. This guy is like the kid walking around a computer 5 engineers are discussing the design flaws of the computer they are working on and why it won't turn on and he says, "Guys, it isn't plugged in!". Not at the pinnacle or colgan pilots.
There's nothing fun about 'beating up' on anything if you approach the issue professionally and forensically.
Not telling ourselves "hello?!" at the common threads of each accident would is irresponsible.
In my professional opinion, you start off with a pilot who is buying credentials, which, in my opinion, is ridiculous. All cases, no, but if the program is already "professionally suspicious" and then it's noted that that the last few regional accidents included graduates from the program, it would be irresponsible not to note that.
Again, our flight school got shut down temporarily because, even after moving to the airlines, a number of our former students were involved in medium-profile incidents.
It would behoove Gulfstream, or their supporters, to be upfront, frank and address the issue.
Is there a screening process for students?
Is there a washout?
How many students "fail" during their 250 hours of experience?
Not telling ourselves "hello?!" at the common threads of each accident would is irresponsible.
In my professional opinion, you start off with a pilot who is buying credentials, which, in my opinion, is ridiculous. All cases, no, but if the program is already "professionally suspicious" and then it's noted that that the last few regional accidents included graduates from the program, it would be irresponsible not to note that.
Again, our flight school got shut down temporarily because, even after moving to the airlines, a number of our former students were involved in medium-profile incidents.
It would behoove Gulfstream, or their supporters, to be upfront, frank and address the issue.
Is there a screening process for students?
Is there a washout?
How many students "fail" during their 250 hours of experience?
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
If Gulfstream is such a scandalous place, and is fair game for honest criticism and intense scrutiny, why are the enablers getting a pass? The planes say Continental on the side, and to the average dumb dumb going from Salt Lake to Nassau, they think they are riding on Continental. Continental could say to Gulfstream, clean up your act or the deal is off, and that would be the end of it.
IMHO, if they fine these regionals with their own operating certificate, they should fine also fine the mainline codeshare partners. At the end of the day most consumers don't know who they buying a seat from.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
That's very true, I would almost argue it could be construed as "false advertising" in a way. They do disclose it, but it's certainly not advertised. Something I wonder about this Colgan crash is if congress might be interested in forcing airlines to do the flying they sell their tickets on, at least domestically.
That's an excellent question.
I'd love to talk about how my union should require the company to have minimum hiring standards for the regionals that are flying a majority of our domestic route structure, but oh, umm, oh, it'd just take too long to explain why they don't want to hear from me!
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
That's an excellent question.
I'd love to talk about how my union should require the company to have minimum hiring standards for the regionals that are flying a majority of our domestic route structure, but oh, umm, oh, it'd just take too long to explain why they don't want to hear from me!
My guess is it wastes negotiating capital that could be used for pay raises. Look at United, they got heavy pay raises but gave away the farm when they got their 2001(?) contract. Originally limited to just 50 RJ's -> unlimited IIRC.
Cessna414JJB
Unknown Member
This is only possible because the puppy mills are a realistically unsupervised bunch of crooks. I remember well the times when you could not (period) get on board with any regional airline unless you had a puppy mill background. All part of inducing more desperation and a level plainfield to the market. When the 300 hour dummies got hired during last years boom, the airlines made damn sure schools like ATP stayed in business, producing this never ending flow of fresh meat. They still claim to be putting more pilots to work than anyone else. Gulfstream is still sending me brochures about how I could become the future Bob Hoover in a S340. Shiny brochures and promises is all it takes to make a deal. Somehow they managed to keep this up, even though the Regional Airline industry is in the gutter and people who have flown for 20+ years are seriously scared to get on board a regional airliner.
The public is happy as long as there is a BOOHMAN, someone to take the blame. The 9 Dollar seats are way more exciting!Simple fix to that: Make a requirement to have at least 2 checkrides done with the FAA. I have my doubts that the FAA is clean enough to handle this responsibility but the pilot testing industry is OUT OF WHACK!
Good luck with that bud.
Willing to go into debt: [] Yes [] No!
Willing to pay for job: [] Yes [] No!
One NO! and you're out. It's hard, I know.
I'd suppose the candidates with the worst attitudes and aptitudes would loose out - but in a sense, you gotta screw up a bunch of stuff for me to give you your 30K back because you don't reach my expectations from you as a customer. I'd rather keep the 30K, ship you off to the next guy in line and hope you won't screw up bad enough so it reflects on me. HOPE... big acronym in Aviation or so it seems.
Thats a damn good question. I'm sure the schools know exactly, but the public may never have to know.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
Welcome to like 10 posts ago.
It's still two different airlines. I don't work at either, so I don't know the specifics, but I'd bet they don't share instructors or training curricula/facilities. Skywest and ASA's training have zero connection whatsoever. American Eagle and American mainline share facilities, but the instruction is totally different.
If either Colgan or Pinnacle had had two fatal wrecks, you can bet there would be an uproar...but being owned by the same pencil-pushers isn't enough to draw conclusions about training.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
Just as a counterpoint, even though they were thousands of hours removed from the program, as a CFI you understand about certain unalienable truths, like the law of primacy.
From the FOI (which I absolutely agree with) "Normal Individuals begin to respond rapidly and exactly, within the limits of their experience and training. Many responses are automatic, which points out the need for proper training in emergency operations prior toan actual emergency. The affected individual thinks rationally, acts rationally and is extremely sensitive to all aspects of the surroundings."
You may be able to attach accidents to either training curricula, but, by the time you get to the regionals, you're probably not coached in basic airmanship,