CNN piece "Airline's Dirty Little Secret"

ATN_Pilot said:
I didn't say that it was the only factor, merely one factor.
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The regionals have a business plan that depends on labor that is less expensive than the majors. The path to the regionals is also different in many cases and experience levels are different.

This in NO WAY is said to denigrate the regional pilots. The regional pilot can fly more legs, spend more time in tough wx, operate in and out of airports with reduced margins ad thus the challenges are in some ways greater than those faced by the aviator flying with a legacy.

But arguing that pay equals safety will not pass muster in the public forum nor the halls of congress without supporting evidence which is not there. We are talking about BILLIONS of dollars and without good arguments, the likelihood chance will occur is remote.
 
cencal83406 said:
Link in accident chain to wages and work rules? Marginally qualified pilots wouldn't be hired if there were more qualified applicants knocking on Colgan's door. Why aren't there? Why would a qualified pilot want to stomach even ONE year at $16,000, considering they've probably gone through it at least once.
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Before you type, be careful, are you saying this pilot wasnt qualified and thats why he/she took the job at $16000 per year.

Here it goes guys. I will tell why this garbage of paying pilots so little money continues to go on in this industry. Because pilots are accepting these jobs at these wages. Pilots are s for flying, and there will always
be someone out there willing to undercut someone else for a stupid job.
We all hate pilots who pay for training. But there were always pilots who did it.. AND SO COMPANIES GOT AWAY WITH THE CRAP.
When we more experienced pilots start to get the word out that these jobs are just not worth it and the inexperienced wannabees start listening to us instead of just plowing ahead, these jobs will go vacant. Then the companies may have to change their thinking.

Until then, forget it.

The inconvenient truth, though, is that there will always be cuthroats who are looking out for themselves and not the good of the profession.
 
cencal83406 said:
Link in accident chain to wages and work rules? Marginally qualified pilots wouldn't be hired if there were more qualified applicants knocking on Colgan's door. Why aren't there? Why would a qualified pilot want to stomach even ONE year at $16,000, considering they've probably gone through it at least once.
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I agree I had ATP mins when job hunting at the regionals, I was offered an interview at Colgan but put it off as long as I could. Ended up not attending. There are much better places out there even in regional land to go that treat you like a person. As much as the pilots at my company gripe it's actually a pretty decent company. Colgan works for some people, they get in and get out. I knew I wouldn't be that lucky.
 
wheelsup said:
I agree I had ATP mins when job hunting at the regionals, I was offered an interview at Colgan but put it off as long as I could. Ended up not attending. There are much better places out there even in regional land to go that treat you like a person. As much as the pilots at my company gripe it's actually a pretty decent company. Colgan works for some people, they get in and get out. I knew I wouldn't be that lucky.
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What happens if you don't get out? Regional airline growth is moving towards a dominant share of the domestic market. When movement stops, we have to deal with the reality of what life really is.

When you don't give your full attention to where you are and what you're doing, that only leads to a lack of situational awareness.

There is absolutely no reason or excuse that pilots in a 121 environment should ever be worked or compensated in such a fashion that they are not able to focus their working efforts solely on the next flight at hand.

We've let it go to far.

The onus falls on us to correct it.


Remember3407.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
highest .



No, they regulate the flying, but not the actual business. Big difference.



.
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Yes, youre right, but be careful what you ask for with this "regulation" business. There is always a catch.

Especially with this new administration, there seems to be this attitude,
"Ok we will help you out, but here's what you will give us in return."

If they put some sort of "minimum wage" legislation for pilots on the table be ready for give backs like:

Pilot's must live within a certain distance of their domicile. No more
commuting.

Pilots must have a registered address within that defined distance.

If we can tell you what the minimun you can make is, we can also tell you
the maximum you can make is as well.


and so on.....
 
azfsi60 said:
Yes, youre right, but be careful what you ask for with this "regulation" business. There is always a catch.
Especially with this new administration, there seems to be this attitude,
Ok we will help you out, but here's what you will give us in return."
If they put some sort of "minimum wage" legislation for pilots on the table be ready for give backs like:
Pilot's must live within a certain distance of their domicile. No more
commuting.
Pilots must have a registered address within that defined distance.
If we can tell you what the minimun you can make is, we can also tell you
the maximum you can make is as well.
and so on.....
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You know, back in the day, when pilots were paid a lot more, nobody ever worried about the logistics of crash pads and how pilots rested up before a flight sequence. The pilots were paid enough to take care of it, and they did.

Personally, I've always hated going to work on less than a full night's sleep, regardless of what I'm doing.

I guarantee you that if finance were not an issue, it'd never happen for me.
 
azfsi60 said:
Yes, youre right, but be careful what you ask for with this "regulation" business. There is always a catch.

Especially with this new administration, there seems to be this attitude,
"Ok we will help you out, but here's what you will give us in return."

If they put some sort of "minimum wage" legislation for pilots on the table be ready for give backs like:

Pilot's must live within a certain distance of their domicile. No more
commuting.

Pilots must have a registered address within that defined distance.

If we can tell you what the minimun you can make is, we can also tell you
the maximum you can make is as well.


and so on.....
Click to expand...

I don't think you fully comprehend the level to which ALPA is in bed with the current President and his Administration. Every week is filled with ALPA Officers meeting with high government officials, including Obama and Biden themselves. We've never had a better time for our profession in Washington.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't think you fully comprehend the level to which ALPA is in bed with the current President and his Administration. Every week is filled with ALPA Officers meeting with high government officials, including Obama and Biden themselves. We've never had a better time for our profession in Washington.
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Well that sounds great.
Im happy for you.
In bed with the Prez, huh????

Well enjoy your little orgy in Washington

Just wait until the airlines need another round of bailout cash and then he'll be in bed with them- telling them how much money that they can make, and telling you and your band of union butt-kissers that you have to take concesions or even gut contracts as a condition of the bailout.

Good night.......and good luck
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
How many ever saw that video where the C-5 crashed short of the runway? Where they had to shut an engine down, then on approach left a good engine at idle and pushed the dead engine up? (I think they now push all the thrust levers up, even if one is shutdown now.) Then went flaps 90'?

Edit: Actually, think it may have been a C-17.
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It was in fact a C5. I have the animation/recreation + CVR video. It's pretty amazing to watch them swap throttles and never realize it. Also, they never told the Load masters who were sitting in the back about the fact that they were going to crash. It happens in the military just as much as the civilian world.

jtrain609 said:
That'd explain his cross country commute. I'd be willing to bet he had been hired at PSA, put down roots and then WHAM! No more west coast bases. So he could uproot his wife and two daughters, or deal with the commute.

Oh and for the kids that don't know anything about the REAL PSA, here's some info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines
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You think THAT commute is bad, I sat next to a USAir, former (old) PSA guy who commutes to Charlotte from Kona, Hawaii.
 
BobDDuck said:
It was in fact a C5. I have the animation/recreation + CVR video. It's pretty amazing to watch them swap throttles and never realize it. Also, they never told the Load masters who were sitting in the back about the fact that they were going to crash. It happens in the military just as much as the civilian world.



You think THAT commute is bad, I sat next to a USAir, former (old) PSA guy who commutes to Charlotte from Kona, Hawaii.
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To be honest, I have no idea if it was bad. Not all cross country commutes are exactly equal. Having 8 flights a day to your base vs. 2 makes a huge difference in having some flexibility in when you leave for work, and hence allows you a little more control over your sleep schedule. Taking a noon reserve call out on the east coast and always making sure you're up by 9:00 a.m. on the west coast? Seems easy enough to me eh?
 
The empty wallets didn't cause that plane to crash the pilots lack of experience and skill did. You can't pay people more than they are worth. If you can't get a single piolt freight job then you are worth less than all 135 single pilot pay which is where its at. If there was a time requirement it would drive people settling for crappy wages out of the industry or to other aspects. The shortage of pilots(theoretically) caused by that would demand better pay as contracts are negotioated.

Those two pilots caused a perfectly good plane to crash. Accountability is what is needed. Enough with the damn excuses for "Club410", "LEX", and now colgan. PILOTS were the cause of all 3. If you hate the pay don't take the job. You have a choice to take a job and do it well and have pride in what you do.
 
I challenge that both the 3407 crew members had the experience and skill necessary to recover from a stall.

Sad reality is that they didn't utilize it.
 
azfsi60 said:
Before you type, be careful, are you saying this pilot wasnt qualified and thats why he/she took the job at $16000 per year.

Here it goes guys. I will tell why this garbage of paying pilots so little money continues to go on in this industry. Because pilots are accepting these jobs at these wages. Pilots are s for flying, and there will always
be someone out there willing to undercut someone else for a stupid job.
We all hate pilots who pay for training. But there were always pilots who did it.. AND SO COMPANIES GOT AWAY WITH THE CRAP.
When we more experienced pilots start to get the word out that these jobs are just not worth it and the inexperienced wannabees start listening to us instead of just plowing ahead, these jobs will go vacant. Then the companies may have to change their thinking.

Until then, forget it.

The inconvenient truth, though, is that there will always be cuthroats who are looking out for themselves and not the good of the profession.
Click to expand...

Well a 250 hr pilot who is out of money for CFI tickets works for flight time. Everytime that plane pushes back they get paid in flight time. Same reason a flight instructor sits around the office trying to bill two hours of flight instruction. Doesn't mean that they can eat that flight time or use it to pay for a hotel room or a decent crash pad, but they are paid in flight time never the less.

The way it is now they can offer crap pay, and see if those who are remotely qualified apply, at industry standard minimums of 1000/100 bite at that crap pay. As long as they can go to a deep bench, where 250 hrs pilots can step in, there will be no upward wage pressure.

Arguments that say that the low time pilot should take one for the team are probably disingenious at best and totally hypocritical at the worst.

Best thing pilots could do is try to push for a 121 standard (talking right seat here) of an ATP or at least on par with 135 PIC hours. I mean it is a crewflown aircraft, right??
 
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