Club Furlough

[azmedic]

So how many are you thinking will be furloughed?

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[azmedic]

Looks like the economy may not be stimulated again..

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[BayouMLU]

That's a whole lotta money for not a whole lotta jobs when you do the math. Last time it was to save the entire airline industry. Just saying.

It saves thousands of airlines jobs, which feed thousands of other aviation jobs. After that, it saves the jobs of people making and selling things that airlines employees and aviation employees buy. The indirect pact is easily another 300,000 jobs and possibly double that.

Plus, commercial aviation in America is to what trains are in Japan, Europe, etc. A drastically reduced commercial airline sector reaches every corner of the US economy. The impact felt by September 2001 wasn't that long ago.

 

[Flagship_dxer]

It saves thousands of airlines jobs, which feed thousands of other aviation jobs. After that, it saves the jobs of people making and selling things that airlines employees and aviation employees buy. The indirect pact is easily another 300,000 jobs and possibly double that.

Plus, commercial aviation in America is to what trains are in Japan, Europe, etc. A drastically reduced commercial airline sector reaches every corner of the US economy. The impact felt by September 2001 wasn't that long ago.

Part of the free market system are the ups and downs. If airlines are so important they can't have those ups and downs, the industry should be nationalized. All the hard work airlines like Southwest have done means nothing if everyone gets bailed out during bad times. In the free market, there are winners and losers. You compete to win. No sense competing against the other airlines if the government is going to subsidize their losses. Why go the extra mile to help customers if there is nothing to be gained from it? Why go the the extra mile to save fuel costs if the government is just going to cover the cost?

 

[paincorp]

It saves thousands of airlines jobs, which feed thousands of other aviation jobs. After that, it saves the jobs of people making and selling things that airlines employees and aviation employees buy. The indirect pact is easily another 300,000 jobs and possibly double that.

Plus, commercial aviation in America is to what trains are in Japan, Europe, etc. A drastically reduced commercial airline sector reaches every corner of the US economy. The impact felt by September 2001 wasn't that long ago.

There’s some pretty staggering numbers floating around out there about what the cost to the government is for every job saved, assuming everyone that got WARN letters gets furloughed. The end result is more than a pilot makes in a year, per job, and that number only goes up when you factor in that not everyone that got a letter will get furloughed. A clean extension of the funding paying for ~75% of employees, when less than 30% will be furloughed is incredibly wasteful.

But I’ll leave you with this. Demand won’t be back in March, either, so what then? Another bail out? How long should this continue? Funding came 7 months ago. If you haven’t been able to make a plan in 7 months, that’s not the tax payer’s fault. Most industries aren’t seeing this support level, and the return on investment for every job saved is ridiculous, since they’re essentially paying for 2.5x the number of jobs they need to per WARN letters.


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[Wonderlic]

There’s some pretty staggering numbers floating around out there about what the cost to the government is for every job saved, assuming everyone that got WARN letters gets furloughed. The end result is more than a pilot makes in a year, per job, and that number only goes up when you factor in that not everyone that got a letter will get furloughed. A clean extension of the funding paying for ~75% of employees, when less than 30% will be furloughed is incredibly wasteful.

But I’ll leave you with this. Demand won’t be back in March, either, so what then? Another bail out? How long should this continue? Funding came 7 months ago. If you haven’t been able to make a plan in 7 months, that’s not the tax payer’s fault. Most industries aren’t seeing this support level, and the return on investment for every job saved is ridiculous, since they’re essentially paying for 2.5x the number of jobs they need to per WARN letters.


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This is correct. If it gets extended it would equate to over $330,000 per employee. And that’s just so they get furloughed 6 months later down the road.

 

[MT]

Every month that the lower paid junior employees can stay employed is another month that they have to continue preparing for the inevitable

 

[paincorp]

Every month that the lower paid junior employees can stay employed is another month that they have to continue preparing for the inevitable

Ok, but you’re looking at 15 months of bail outs with an extension. How long should this continue and put off the inevitable?

Why should the tax payers pay for a flight attendant, ticket agent, rampers, etc to not work, and get full pay and benefits for 15 months when no other industry got that? At some point this has to stop. At what point is it enough?


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[who'swho]

Every month that the lower paid junior employees can stay employed is another month that they have to continue preparing for the inevitable

I feel their pain, I've worked for an airline that closed their doors. You also won't hear me complaining cuz the government didn't step in to save 10k jobs in that situation. During this pandemic the government saved the airline industry as a whole and rightfully so, but for them to step in to save a portion of the industry at this point just doesn't make sense. The demand just isn't there due to a multitude of people outside of aviation losing their jobs. Again, I feel terrible for all my friends and colleagues who are faced with furloughs right now.

 

[MT]

Again, I feel terrible for all my friends and colleagues who are faced with furloughs right now.

Appreciate the "thoughts and prayers" but that doesn't keep the affected workers and their families fed and in their homes. When directly faced with these issues number 1 comes first. If the government is willing to help you out, why would you be against it? If you were potentially losing your job and the government did intervene for you to keep it would you turn that paycheck back in and take the furlough for the general taxpayers? I highly doubt it.

 

[MT]

Ok, but you’re looking at 15 months of bail outs with an extension. How long should this continue and put off the inevitable?

Why should the tax payers pay for a flight attendant, ticket agent, rampers, etc to not work, and get full pay and benefits for 15 months when no other industry got that? At some point this has to stop. At what point is it enough?


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Why not? If the government decides to do that it's their prerogative and I'm sure any employee in any industry looking down the barrel of the shotgun right now would welcome the relief. Sure I've been stashing away as much cash as possible for what's coming but only a fool would not welcome the ability to continue to prepare for a bout with furlough. However, if you care so much about the taxpayer then by all means take that furlough for me and return all your paychecks you've received while covered by the CARES act.

 

[who'swho]

Why not? If the government decides to do that it's their prerogative and I'm sure any employee in any industry looking down the barrel of the shotgun right now would welcome the relief. Sure I've been stashing away as much cash as possible for what's coming but only a fool would not welcome the ability to continue to prepare for a bout with furlough. However, if you care so much about the taxpayer then by all means take that furlough for me and return all your paychecks you've received while covered by the CARES act.

Why not? Because spending $300k+ per employee every 6 months is a ridiculous amount. The government has an obligation to spend taxpayer money in a responsible way. We've already saved the industry, at some point cuts will have to happen.

 

[MT]

Why not? Because spending $300k+ per employee every 6 months is a ridiculous amount. The government has an obligation to spend taxpayer money in a responsible way. We've already saved the industry, at some point cuts will have to happen.

ok. you first.

 

[who'swho]

ok. you first.

Yeah, I already was laid off when my wife was 6 months pregnant at the time. We all have our problems. If you want the government paying for everything I recommend Cuba.

 

[azmedic]

I agree cuts need to be made at some point,but once those cuts are made...what happens to those people that have been cut? I have been out of work since April when my airline shut down and have applied for well over 50 jobs to this date with no success. I interviewed to be an entry level cook in a restaurant- they had over 300 applications for one position. Doing Shipt and Instacart will only get a person so far


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[WXDispatch]

I agree cuts need to be made at some point,but once those cuts are made...what happens to those people that have been cut? I have been out of work since April when my airline shut down and have applied for well over 50 jobs to this date with no success. I interviewed to be an entry level cook in a restaurant- they had over 300 applications for one position. Doing Shipt and Instacart will only get a person so far


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I'm in a similar position, I've applied to well over 600 jobs at this point and I've heard back from three employers and I've been passed up for either more experienced candidates or that I'm overqualified. It's not an easy job market out there at all. By some estimates, there are only 16.3 million unemployed, by others its closer to 30 million. The sad truth is there isn't work for everyone. So when people say, "just go get a job", that is exactly what myself and millions of others are trying to do. If it helps anyone feel a bit better I've even been rejected from Target as a cashier and from Starbucks to be a barista, despite the fact I've been in both of those positions with other companies before.

 

[azmedic]

I'm in a similar position, I've applied to well over 600 jobs at this point and I've heard back from three employers and I've been passed up for either more experienced candidates or that I'm overqualified. It's not an easy job market out there at all. By some estimates, there are only 16.3 million unemployed, by others its closer to 30 million. The sad truth is there isn't work for everyone. So when people say, "just go get a job", that is exactly what myself and millions of others are trying to do. If it helps anyone feel a bit better I've even been rejected from Target as a cashier and from Starbucks to be a barista, despite the fact I've been in both of those positions with other companies before.

It truly is a gut punch going from managing an SOC to being rejected for an entry level job like cashier or cook.


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[Hecklers2002]

It’s interesting that there are some that will have cardiac arrest at the idea of the amount of pennies the government is granting or even loaning to these airlines to save American jobs and keep the American economy stimulated. But there isn’t any heartburn to the dollars spent on the things that don’t benefit our country. It’s weird to me. I wish unemployment on nobody (no matter how prepared you are for it). But we do live in the land of dog eat dog and nobody really cares unless it affects their livelihood.

 

[paincorp]

It’s interesting that there are some that will have cardiac arrest at the idea of the amount of pennies the government is granting or even loaning to these airlines to save American jobs and keep the American economy stimulated. But there isn’t any heartburn to the dollars spent on the things that don’t benefit our country. It’s weird to me. I wish unemployment on nobody (no matter how prepared you are for it). But we do live in the land of dog eat dog and nobody really cares unless it affects their livelihood.

I’m sorry, but spending $330,000 (averaged) to pay a low seniority gate agent $20,000 for 6 months (assuming $40k/yr starting) isn’t stimulating the economy, it’s insanity. Spend that money on enhanced unemployment that will help way more people. We should be doing the most good with this money, and there are way more beneficial ways to spend it to stimulate the economy.


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[MT]

It’s interesting that there are some that will have cardiac arrest at the idea of the amount of pennies the government is granting or even loaning to these airlines to save American jobs and keep the American economy stimulated. But there isn’t any heartburn to the dollars spent on the things that don’t benefit our country. It’s weird to me. I wish unemployment on nobody (no matter how prepared you are for it). But we do live in the land of dog eat dog and nobody really cares unless it affects their livelihood.

That's just it. We're all in this together, unless you're below me on the seniority list. Then your livelihood and family don't matter. Such a sad outlook to have. Agree that people should not be taking handouts forever, but help should be there for those in a time of need.