Challenger 601 CA & FO

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Not always the case, partner.
You can hold on to your morals and still get a good job that you're shooting for.
Steve C knows what he's talking about. Although I might not always agree with Surreal, take a moment and understand that he's been where you've been. Seggy, although he's ugly, has been there and done that. I'VE been where you are.
We're not trying to knock you down a notch, we're trying to help you out.

I'm not in disagreement with any of these gents, I'm just fed up with this unbelievable crap we have to put up with. I see ATP's with 3000+ hours beg for the lousiest jobs. Everyone tells me to go sit in line with MESA to get "jet time" so I can apply for a real job.
My resume is out there, I am not limited to twins, or special gigs, my outlook is rather positive, as I know that if I get an interview, I'll get the job (historical experience ;))

I wish there was better jobs to post, really. Believe me.:banghead:
Looks like the good times are gone for good.
 
A flight crew position on a challenger is NOT an entry level position. I understand taking a lower paying job when you are just starting out flying for a living. That's pretty common with most jobs out there, aviation or non-aviation. However, after you've been in your industry for awhile it's not unfair to expect a certain level of compensation for what you'll bring to the company.

As for contacting this company to let them know it's a slap in the face pay, I'm sure plenty of people have already done that when they called for the job and interviewed. They probably haven't phrased it that way, but I'm sure more than a few phone calls ended with "thanks but no thanks" when the pay issue was brought up.

As others have said, this isn't a personal attack on you. It's an attack on the company. Thank you for posting a job opening. Seriously. We're angry because this is yet another example of a company lowering the bar. Some of us have made A LOT of sacrifices to get where we are. And get pissed when we have to do it again and again.

We pay our dues, but there comes a time when the dues are paid and you have to be able to make loan payments, buy a car that doesn't suck, and live in a house in a decent neighborhood.
 
I don't even see how anyone typed in a Challenger would have a hard time finding a job. Looking at the job boards this is the type to have right now and could land high paying jobs all over the world. I could be wrong, but it's just something I noticed on the job boards.
 
I'm sure you've already had to make a few sacrifices already, doesn't learning that this stuff continues down the road piss you off too?

Absolutely does.
I do not take anything as a personal attack, 99% of you guys don't know me, don't know what my values are, what I stand for or how I view this world.
What I do know is that we pilots are interconnected (invisible roots) and what we let a young kid accept today, is what we will have to put up with tomorrow. It's really quite easy to understand. It's also easy to change.
I view JC as a ideal network to bring out ideas and solutions to problems we face in this profession. I'm not here to whine, I'm not here to complain.
I just believe the change in attitude we need to install into our community comes from us, and how well we can cope with the realities of a pretty crooked market. Teams win, lonesome rangers loose. Many lonesome rangers out there.
 
Well think of JC as the place that is trying NOT to let young kids accept unreasonable working conditions. That essentially is what we all who have been commenting on this position were trying to do.

Not that I'm a huge wisdom speaker, but with only 23 posts here. . .you have a lot to learn about the JC "community," and even with my 9k plus. . .I still haven't learned everything but much more than I did when I only had 30 posts.

Those lonesome rangers are the ones who are losing, and who ultimately will not garner a great deal of respect from the team players who are all trying to protect whatever career integrity is left in this industry.
 
I'll have to disagree that you have to take the worst of the worst to get into flying. That isn't true, you still have a choice. I and others have turned down jobs based bad pay, conditions, etc. While "Entry Level" pay is lower, there is no reason to work for the companies at the absolute bottom of the payscale. There are enough regionals out there that pay better than the bottom feeders. The same goes for CFI's and corporate gigs.

I personally made the hard choice to turn down jobs coming out of college. I also was selective when going to the regionals and went to one of the higher paying ones at the time. While more than qualified for for the CL positon I wouldn't even consider it nor would my colleagues who laughed when I showed them the add.

Calling a Challenger or any business jet an entry level position is a joke. Heck there are CFI jobs that pay more than what they want to pay a professional flight crew.

Why do you think so may pilots are leaving for overseas? They value the profession and will not work for peanuts so they leave to fly for respectable wages with a foreign carrier. Why do you think people turn down their recall notices. They have chosen not to work for peanuts and would rather hang up there wings than wh#r# themselves out.

You think pilots are harsh and outspoken about sub par paying jobs. Try taking your point to the UAW union members. See what they think about people doing their same job for sub par pay.

And another note there is a contract Saab operator that flys 3 days and week pays 40K to start with full benefits. Still a little low IMO but it is reasonable.
 
So what about the fractional payscales on APC? Those rates seem hourly less then what was offered up. I am seriously asking. Look at the one above I posted, are those according to you all subpart and unacceptable payscales?
 
So what about the fractional payscales on APC? Those rates seem hourly less then what was offered up. I am seriously asking. Look at the one above I posted, are those according to you all subpart and unacceptable payscales?

This whole discussion seems to suffer from a simple problem. Subjectivity.
With only 23 posts on JC I clearly have no clue about the industry, for the simple reason that I was only born yesterday and have never seen a real pilot. I doubt I will reach the 30 count with the level of annoyance a simple job posting can cause. I never called a Challenger Seat a "Entry Level" job, nor do I entertain to be thrown in the same pot as the people I so much despise.

Those lonesome rangers are the ones who are losing, and who ultimately will not garner a great deal of respect from the team players who are all trying to protect whatever career integrity is left in this industry.

My words, exactly.
 
This whole discussion seems to suffer from a simple problem. Subjectivity.
With only 23 posts on JC I clearly have no clue about the industry, for the simple reason that I was only born yesterday and have never seen a real pilot.

Well, people have asked about your experience and you haven't answered. Your profile is barely filled out, but it appears you have a student pilot certificate. It would help if you let us know your experience so we aren't assuming. Could you please let us know your experience in the industry?
 
And also I could not care less what you make at NetJets. Comparing pay is like comparing who is the best high school football player in school. Its childish and immature.
You totally missed the intent of what I said. I used those approximate numbers to show how flawed the other writers hourly comparisons and how invalid such a comparison was. Nowhere in that post did I brag about my pay.

That kind of stuff I have no respect for when people want to pull that card out.
So I guess you have no respect for yourself either. After you wrongly accuse me of something, you turn around and post Flexjet's pay figures. As I established in my original post, hourly salary figures in the corp world have no basis for comparison.

So what about the fractional payscales on APC? Those rates seem hourly less then what was offered up. I am seriously asking.
The numbers for Flex have no basis for comparison. Nor can you compare a frac job to a charter job, they are vastly different animals and have different duties/work rules.

For the record. B&CA's 2008 Planning Guide estimates personnel costs for a CL600 at $93,980 for PIC and $71,603 for SIC.
 
...the fact that jobs like these are filled after two days indicates a lot of very desperate people on the market, whereas, I did not consider myself desperate, or even qualified enough to consider such employment. Someone did. So much for your "professional wage" game plan.
To the contrary my friend. You have no idea who took these jobs, or if in fact these jobs every existed. Perhaps the old crew didn't leave, perhaps the operator was "testing the waters" for a future opening or to see if the lowball would be accepted. Perhaps they want to tell other applicants that the 2 day job isn't available......but this 6.5 day job is.

Maybe it was a newbie that took the job. If so, I guarantee after a few days in the pilot lounge with other Challenger crews, their resumes will be updated and the job will be posted again.

You are not insulting me by calling me clueless. I wish I did not know about this ridicule our pilots are subjecting themselves to everyday.

As long as the trouble stay's out of their backyard, they don't give a rats ass.
So in one sentence you say pilots don't care about "their backyard" and in the other you say we ridicule each other for not holding our end up.

This thread is an perfect example of established corporate pilots calling a spade a spade and telling younger pilots why to approach or not approach these types of jobs. People ask our opinions, we give it. When you don't get the answer you expected to hear you get defensive. Do you want honest feedback or not?
 
Well, people have asked about your experience and you haven't answered. Your profile is barely filled out, but it appears you have a student pilot certificate. It would help if you let us know your experience so we aren't assuming. Could you please let us know your experience in the industry?

No need to assume. I would not be looking for a seat if I was a student pilot with no experience. I hold every rating and certificate required for employment as a commercial pilot. I call myself a student because I like how people react to a newbie that doesn't claim to know it all. I have about 10 years non piloting related aviation experience in the U.S.
Forgive me for not posting my resume in here.

Have you ever worked as a professional pilot?
Would I be surprised and disgusted about the state of this industry, and how pilots are a cheap commodity if I had? Would I be making a mistake by posting a job offer I found on some website if I knew how much "Challenger Corporate Pilots" get for flying them? I did not post this here to insult you guys, nor did I ever anticipate to be sucked into a senseless discussion about the shortcomings of this industry and it's people. Quite an eyeopener, for me too! I just got pissed when everyone started going balistic about what sort of an insult this was. I actually regretted having posted it here 4 posts into it. WTF?

This is not soul searching for me, I joined JC because it has a good reputation and a bunch of people (away from computers) have recommended it as a good pulse measure of this industry. They lurk, I, stupidly signed up, and couldn't keep my mouth shut. My bad.
 
NJA_Capt you all have avoided my question. I am very ignorant with the corp world and thus fractional world. Thus why I posted the payscale for an FO in the fractional world. Its the only information I could find out there for other Challenger pilots. Thus the reason I am asking what one makes and also if the payscale for a certain challenger employeer is subpar. I posted their daily rates. Much less then what you and others had already discussed in addition their hourly OT rates. I am asking is that rate subpar and if so why do they have the amount of employees willing to work there? In addition what are the payrates you are saying would be fair? Based on what I have looked into 250-400 a day for a person acting as FO is standard in the fractional world and in the corp world around the Indy Area. Now I know Indy is a small market and is not probably indicative of what others pay thus I am asking. Answer some simple questions if you would.
 
No need to assume. I would not be looking for a seat if I was a student pilot with no experience. I hold every rating and certificate required for employment as a commercial pilot. I call myself a student because I like how people react to a newbie that doesn't claim to know it all. I have about 10 years non piloting related aviation experience in the U.S.
Forgive me for not posting my resume in here.

I was being nice, as I was in my earlier post to you, and with this last one I was asking a simple question. With just a few posts, what else do we have to go on if not your relevant experience? It's common to qualify opinions with experience. Who has more credibility in their industry, a premed student or a neurosurgeon?


This is not soul searching for me, I joined JC because it has a good reputation and a bunch of people (away from computers) have recommended it as a good pulse measure of this industry. They lurk, I, stupidly signed up, and couldn't keep my mouth shut. My bad.

You really have to stop this. No one is attacking you. Really. They will if you keep up this self-effacing feeling-sorry-for-yourself diatribe you you keep writing. There has been nothing but a civil two-way discussion you insist on defining as a personal attack on you. You posted a job, people in the business think the job sucks - end of story. You are the one keeping the discussion going with this stuff. Just let it go.
 
I hold every rating and certificate required for employment as a commercial pilot. I call myself a student because I like how people react to a newbie that doesn't claim to know it all.

Here's a newsflash: You are a newbie that doesn't know it all. Having your commercial pilot certificate is very, very minimal as far as experience goes. I had no idea how little I knew until I started flying professionally - and that goes for the business side of this as well as the flying. You seem unusually cocky for whatever reason.

I've worked as a flight instructor, a charter pilot, and just recently accepted a position as a corporate pilot. I still have a TON to learn, and have a lot of respect for what these EXPERIENCED guys (much more than me) have to say.
 
At the risk of tossing gasoline on a fire, I don't think I have any problem with this job. The thing is, you just have to stand your ground. If I lived in ocean shores, had a job already, and was looking for something to do, I wouldn't mind doing this. Look, don't show up to work more than on friday evenings and sunday afternoons. Don't do anything other than fly. Its not a bad gig if you just fly.

I'm no corporate guy, I a 135er and maybe I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground, but look, its over $100/hr for part time work. That doesn't sound that bad. You might get a type out of it, but at very worst, you could have some fun in some different equipment.

This is not a job for a career, this is a part time job.
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Look, I've thought about doing this here in Anchortown, there are a couple of places flying DC-3s in town, and they occasionally need FOs for part time work. The FOs make $30/hr, and fly about 100hrs per year in the 3. I don't need the money, but I think it would be cool to fly a three and see what that's all about because flying is more than a job for me, I actually enjoy it. If you're advocating this as a full time job, then, well, that's rediculous, if you're a part timer looking for some (potentially) interesting work for a little extra change then why not?

I knew a guy who was a history teacher here in town at the university, he loved history, and he loved talking about history with people (sometimes way tooooooo much). For fun, he took a weekend job at the local museum gift shop for pocket change, and for the chance to talk with people about a subject he enjoyed. He had the qualifications to work as curator of the museum, and he probably could have gotten that job, but rather he worked at the gift shop because he figured it was more up his alley (whatever that means). The interesting thing is though, he's not banned from any future with historical jobs because he stooped to this level, nor was the gift shop job mocked by his colleagues, it was just something he did on the weekend. That's what this job has to be - something you do on the weekends.
 
Look, don't show up to work more than on friday evenings and sunday afternoons. Don't do anything other than fly. Its not a bad gig if you just fly.
:laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff:

Please.

They want to pay the CAPTAIN under $30k. Who do you think they're paying to clean the airplane? To stock it? To update the charts and FMS database? To schedule the mx?

Do you think they're paying a "manager" 6 figures to do all of this?

I can't be sure, but to me that sounds an awful lot like Disney World.

Methinks there will be quite a bit of non-flying duties required with something like this. Don't plan on coming in twice a week.

-mini
 
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