Challenger 601 CA & FO

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Thank you for the bashing. Thanks also for the nice PM's I have received!
The job now also apprears on findapilot:

Job Description:
Crew needed for Bombardier Challenger 601-1A. Captain and First Officer position available immediately on Challenger 601.

Boeing Field Airport Seattle, WA. (KBFI) to Bowerman Airport, Hoquiam, WA. (KHQM).

Karen@ExecutiveAirSales.com

Fishy or not, find out for yourself, I'm sure Karen or "info" :cwm27: really appreciates some deep rooted insults together with your resume's.

Side Note: I am not affiliated with this operation, nor have I gained any valuable insights into any details. I was merely the kid which posted the job in here to assure those who qualify a chance to apply. As you may have noticed, after the bashing started I pointed out that application for this job is not mandatory. The fact that the current jobmarket leaves some with a burning jacket does not constitute an emergency on anyone elses side. Keep that in mind gents!
 
Listen guys and gals...stop taking this personally. Some of us in this side of the industry are telling you what is wrong with this ad. We are not judging you or casting stones. We are simply sharing our experience with you. The job is fishy, the pay is horrendous ( I don't care if it's flying 1 day a week...there is more to most Part 91 jobs and you will work more than 1 day), and the flying is fishy (very short legs for this type of airplane).

Take it for what it's worth. Apply and figure it out yourself. It is a bad job. Yes, it's a job, but a bad one. Trust me, as some one who left a bad job in this market, I'd rather be unemployed, or out of aviation, than work a terrible job. First hand experience, here. What's your experience?
 
Thank you for the bashing. Thanks also for the nice PM's I have received!
The job now also apprears on findapilot:

Job Description:
Crew needed for Bombardier Challenger 601-1A. Captain and First Officer position available immediately on Challenger 601.

Boeing Field Airport Seattle, WA. (KBFI) to Bowerman Airport, Hoquiam, WA. (KHQM).

Karen@ExecutiveAirSales.com

Fishy or not, find out for yourself, I'm sure Karen or "info" :cwm27: really appreciates some deep rooted insults together with your resume's.

Side Note: I am not affiliated with this operation, nor have I gained any valuable insights into any details. I was merely the kid which posted the job in here to assure those who qualify a chance to apply. As you may have noticed, after the bashing started I pointed out that application for this job is not mandatory. The fact that the current jobmarket leaves some with a burning jacket does not constitute an emergency on anyone elses side. Keep that in mind gents!
You realize the people "bashing" are bashing the position, and not you, right? You said you are not affiliated with this position so I wonder why you take it so personally. The people you say are "bashing" are actually "educating" others on what the daily rates are for corporate/charter contract pilots. Seeing that you're new here, you might not know your audience. Many of the people responding are actual charter/corporate pilots with years of experience and thousands of hours. While their responses might come of as harsh, that's only because undercutting daily rates is a big issue to their livelihood.

At any rate, since this job has nothing to do with you personally, there is no reason to take comments about it personally. You did a good thing by posting an available job, and I'd hope at your experience level you'd learn from the comments rather than defending something you don't have the experience to defend.
 
I was merely the kid which posted the job in here to assure those who qualify a chance to apply. As you may have noticed, after the bashing started I pointed out that application for this job is not mandatory.

I didn't see anybody bashing you for posting the job. That was a nice effort on your part, and whether the job is good or not, thanks for taking that initiative.

If I had to guess, people took issue with your defense of the job. This kind of flying isn't comparable to what entry level pilots at Mesa make (your comparison). You are just starting out in this industry, and it's an honest mistake. Learn from it (low ball wages are not acceptable for corporate pilots) and move on.
 
It sure appears to me that the people in this thread that have experience in the corporate/charter/fractional world are pretty unanimous in pointing out the "flaws" with this job.

Just saying...
 
There is nothing wrong with sharing your experience. It is your solid right (and in my opinion the minimum expected from you experienced guys) to warn others if you think it is a bad job. But seriously, who are you reaching? Others, who share your point of view or match your level of experience. What do you think you are accomplishing with trying to keep these two seats unoccupied? A turning in pilot pay? Are you trying to prevent anyone from doing it for free to stop the further decline in pilot wages? If so, please wake up:

  • ATP still cranks out hundreds of students per year who will foster cheap pilot labor until there are no jobs left, there won't be a shortage like the last one, the airlines (contrary to the pilots) have learned their lessons.
  • MESA will not increase it's Pilot pay, just because after years of slavery and missed opportunity to stick up for one another, someone makes the decision that 2400 is not enough, but at 2500 we can talk about it.
  • From the left seat, making 6 figures, this part time gig may look like an insult, it is not my fault to take offense for you guys have lost knowledge of how this coin looks from the other side, including for those with solid flying skills but less hours trying to get a foot in the door somewhere.
Here is what will change the market:

If the minimum acceptable is 500 dollars per leg, go, apply, take the job and park the airplane with it's pax on board. When the owner calls because his PAX is getting antsy, tell the owner you are sitting 100 yards short of a runway but have forgotten how to fly, because you are paid so lousily. Negotiate right then and there. See what happens...

If the minimum is so unacceptable, find out who finally takes the job, keep a running log and when that person has finally climbed the ladder high enough to sit bitch in your CRJ700 or Citation at Netjets, look at him or her and decline flying with him. "You took on the job flying a Challenger 601 for 1800 dollars a month in 2008 and I can not fly with someone willing to undercut this profession like you did. See what happens...

I agree that the pay may not be big, but I don't see how moaning about it will change anything, for again, simple reasons:

  • You do not have a community of pilots that looks out for one another exceeding the bashing, looking down upon and badmouthing. You laugh about the guy on the right seat, flying for peanuts, you realize that if the kid in the right seat speaks up, he/ she's gone and replaced, no need to shut down the engine.
  • You do not have the backbone to decline a job like this, because at the end of the day you have to pay your bills. This barrel has no bottom (which is caused by the lack of YOU looking out for each other) and you know it. Do this, or go work at Home Depot.
I take offense because I never asked anyone to apply, I felt it was a noble thing to do, to post this here, I neither care nor know of the median Challenger Captain income because I am not there. If I could, I would gain a few hours on a C601 for stupid 4 hours a week. That does not mean I would have a chance, because there will be 1800 hour guys with many many hours on this type available for less money.

Please realize that there is no bottom in this barrel, as long as we are not acting and working together, some sort of union that looks out for one another. I want you guys to make money, I want to make money, but please do not misunderstand the fact that some are starting out, while others are trying to maintain standards in an industry that has no lack of prostitutes. Come up with a National Career Pilots Association that actually bases itself on some values, that makes it impossible for the airlines, private operators or corporations to hire below industry standard wages. I would volunteer 10 hours per week to the making of such an organization - but rest assured, asking our professionals for putting in something for free for the greater good is like asking your President for a dime. He'll smile and move on.
 
Here's how a jetcareers education works:

I was offered a job about two months ago. I knew a guy on JC who did the exact same kind of work. I contacted him, and asked him what the market rate was for the job. Turns out, I was offered a salary considerably lower than market rate. Since he had the experience and I trusted him, I declined the job offer.

JC - not just for pointless arguing.
 
Here's how a jetcareers education works:

I was offered a job about two months ago. I knew a guy on JC who did the exact same kind of work. I contacted him, and asked him what the market rate was for the job. Turns out, I was offered a salary considerably lower than market rate. Since he had the experience and I trusted him, I declined the job offer.

JC - not just for pointless arguing.

I assume the operator went out of business shortly after you declined the offer? They just could not find pilots anywhere.
I am not the one to be reached here, buddy. Money comes from another profession for me, I just happen to be a career changer who wants to have fun flying. Thats why you can't and won't ever find me in the line of people sitting duck for a a MESA recruiter :cwm27: ...

Edit: *I would like to know how many of you will contact this email address personally and share your belief that this job posting is a slap in the face. Tell 'em everything you told here, this way they know what they are dealing with and if they wish to do so, can clarify on any and all questions. It would show people like me and many others that this group of pilots cares and is demanding change. I'll bet $1.000 bucks (not) the positions are filled with well qualified pilots being happy to have found a job like this.
You guys are kidding yourself. You just don't know yet.
 
Yeah a couple retired guys looking to putz around on someone elses dime is probably who would like it. Beats being greeters at Wal-Mart...I guess.
 
This job sounds about as fishy as Cirrus demanding photos to be attached to a resume. Yet none of you all were quick to bash a questionable hiring pratice like that. ANYWAYS its sounds like no one, even those of you in this side of aviation, know anything about this job. So why not just leave it be and move on. Who cares, someone posted an opening and let it be at that. If someone wants to take the time and find out more about the position, let them do as they wish. None of us know anything about this job. It'd be like me positing a general thread saying, I have a buddy who has a challenger 601 position open PM me if you are intrested. People can take the liberty and try to find out the facts about it. Until then you nor I know anything about this position and are not in a position in which we should bash one for positing the job.

Also those of you on this side of aviation who know all about this world. Whats the story behind Flexjets? Their FOs on the challenger are making the following daily and OT hour rates posted to the side:

1st 278 OT Hourly rate $35
2nd 288 OT $36
3rd 307 OT $38
4th 327 OT $41
5th 344 OT $43
6th 361 OT $45

So whats up with that pay if the industry average is much higher as you all mentioned?
 
Nothing behind it?

Now here's an insult. . .you're clueless.

Have the past two pages of information really gone over your head? You seem to be taking the professional issues of maintaining at or above a standard of pay for a daily rate via contract for an aircraft needing pilot services pretty dang personal.

We welcome new job postings, but when they are this ridiculous . . . do you really expect people who consider themselves professionals to be all over this like white on rice? Really?

Yeah, some poor slum who needs a job will eat this one up. But in doing such he/she is ignoring that some pretty hard working folks in the contract corporate world try to maintain a standard for pay.

I would have expected you to change your tune already regarding this, but clearly it is either ignorance or just an acceptance that you approve of such behavior from contract hiring departments.

So. . .hopefully you'll come to your senses and see that there is "something behind" all of the hot steam. Now as far as you agree or disagree with it. . .that's for you to decide, and be happy the interweb doesn't blaster your face and real name across it anytime you say something.

I fear for the corporate contract guys if you are one of the individuals who fail to realize the impacts these types of operations have on the contract pilot's ability to make a standard livable wage.
 
Probably won't take very long and those positions will be available...again.

TB, you're missing the point. We try to tell people that jobs are crappy so they won't make a mistake, or at least know what they are getting into if they do take the job. We aren't naive enough to think that we'll stop everyone from taking that crap job, nor do we believe that we have enough influence to change that (and other) employers' practices in offering crap jobs (although that won't stop us from trying). I'm not quite sure why you get so defensive about the whole thing. :confused:

We're just paying it forward.
 
Probably won't take very long and those positions will be available...again.

TB, you're missing the point. We try to tell people that jobs are crappy so they won't make a mistake, or at least know what they are getting into if they do take the job. We aren't naive enough to think that we'll stop everyone from taking that crap job, nor do we believe that we have enough influence to change that (and other) employers' practices in offering crap jobs (although that won't stop us from trying). I'm not quite sure why you get so defensive about the whole thing. :confused:

We're just paying it forward.

Couldn't have said it better myself Steve.
 
You seem to be taking the professional issues of maintaining at or above a standard of pay for a daily rate via contract for an aircraft needing pilot services pretty dang personal.

Yes, I do, the fact that jobs like these are filled after two days indicates a lot of very desperate people on the market, whereas, I did not consider myself desperate, or even qualified enough to consider such employment. Someone did. So much for your "professional wage" game plan. You are not insulting me by calling me clueless. I wish I did not know about this ridicule our pilots are subjecting themselves to everyday.

We welcome new job postings, but when they are this ridiculous . . . do you really expect people who consider themselves professionals to be all over this like white on rice? Really?
There are those who read a post, recognize my position, and there are those not doing so.

Yeah, some poor slum who needs a job will eat this one up. But in doing such he/she is ignoring that some pretty hard working folks in the contract corporate world try to maintain a standard for pay.
Hence my above statements, which you have obviously not read.

I would have expected you to change your tune already regarding this, but clearly it is either ignorance or just an acceptance that you approve of such behavior from contract hiring departments.
The fact that I speak my mind in regards to the current hiring practices say's nothing about my approval or ignorance for them. If anything, you can blame me for being sarcastic about very desperate people selling this profession for the lowest bid. Do not undermine my integrity because the facts of this state of affairs does not give you a fuzzy warm feeling of job security. Our profession (500 hours or 5000 hours doesn't matter anymore!) is being sold for peanuts. AND WE ARE WATCHING IT! So keep beating up the guy that screams your message using a different tone, or go find the ding dongs that ride this profession into the fu&#%@!( ground.

So. . .hopefully you'll come to your senses and see that there is "something behind" all of the hot steam. Now as far as you agree or disagree with it. . .that's for you to decide, and be happy the interweb doesn't blaster your face and real name across it anytime you say something.
I have long known that the pilot community is one of the harshest and most dangerous group of people. I know for a fact that other pilots dislike my efforts to make them aware of their shortcomings when it comes to looking out for each other. Lawyers do it, Doctors do it, Reporters do it, but Pilots won't. You call for my name being disclosed because you feel threatened in your ignorance. You are happy as long as your paycheck is nice and fat. 90% of people are like that. As long as the trouble stay's out of their backyard, they don't give a rats ass.

I fear for the corporate contract guys if you are one of the individuals who fail to realize the impacts these types of operations have on the contract pilot's ability to make a standard livable wage.
Me too, I just dare to fear for a lot more than just the corporate guys being outsold. We have pilots running for cover left and right. Extremely smart, dedicated honest good people, who can no longer afford to fly for peanuts. Where do they go? China. India. Dubai.

It does not take an ATP and 8000 hours to figure out how this market works. I posted the job in good intent, not caring the least bit about what a Challenger Captain makes. The FO makes as much as a guy flying sightseeing flights in a 172. Do you think I'm stupid, and don't know that?
Try again.

I apologize to the others if I appeared overly offended by this. I just wish some of the posters would take it as what it was. One available job. I knew it would be filled in hours and unless we (as in group, people, community) change our ways, it will always be like this. No sense bitching about how little this job pays if we are lacking the grassroots efforts it takes to change peoples perception. I realize that I am asking for the impossible, now, years after the crisis is started.

Edit*: Thanks for the advise about not taking jobs which don't pay well. That means if you are starting out in this career (!) you decline 99.9% of the jobs that get you the necessary exposure to flying, to obtain more gainful employment down the road. All the while watching the kids from the pilot mills taking peanut jobs. At least they fly? In our current market you have to sell out cheap in order to even get considered.
 
Thanks for the advise about not taking jobs which don't pay well. That means if you are starting out in this career (!) you decline 99.9% of the jobs that get you the necessary exposure to flying, to obtain more gainful employment down the road.

Not always the case, partner.

You can hold on to your morals and still get a good job that you're shooting for.

Steve C knows what he's talking about. Although I might not always agree with Surreal, take a moment and understand that he's been where you've been. Seggy, although he's ugly, has been there and done that. I'VE been where you are.

We're not trying to knock you down a notch, we're trying to help you out.
 
I tried. . .how's it go. . .you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink?

Hand a man a fish, and he'll eat well for one evening?

Teach a man how to fish, and he'll eat well for the rest of his life?

One of those, or something.
 
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