Catalina BE-55 Crash

Young @knot4u was with his CFI, so that dulls the cut a bit. But in my inexperience of being an instructor, I'm not sure if a student pilot even with his instructor sitting tandem has the skills fly in those conditions. But Methuselah, I mean @knot4u is older, they did flight training different then, they do it today. You used to learn spin training in PPL. In today's one size fits all primary training world, I just I can't see this type of stuff happening as a student pilot. He survived to tell the tale. All's well that ends well. I guess my shock was that, that wouldn't probably happen in today's "big box" flight schools, with company written training lessons, that CFI's aren't allowed to deviate from. Strict six month accelerated training programs, And only being able to do x-countries to management/company approved airports.
Calm down Max. As I said I believe my instructor was fully aware of what was going to happen and wanted to teach me something, after all it was a flight lesson. I also suspect I was not his first student that was lured into this situation. He was a CFII and the airplane was IFR equipped and we never entered IMC, the entire flight was legal VFR CAVU at night, which led to a loss of external references looking forward. I'm unsure of how much flying over large bodies of water at night you've done but on a moonless night it gets real dark after you pass the coast. It was a very clever way to teach me a valuable lesson without putting anyone in any real danger. Had I proposed doing that particular cross country flight as a solo student pilot I don't think it would've even been legal, he had to show me why that might be problematic before I got my PPL. I'm sorry your training was not as thorough.
 
Yikes, as @MikeD touched on, no lights right away means the only way back is across to the LGB shore once you leave earth. Even on a bright sunny day, that drive down to town is sketchy at best. On my trip, the airport van driver several times passed trucks that had maybe 1 foot between them and the edge of the cliff while passing our big van it looked like. Tough situation stuck up there at night compared to most airports for sure, as you're crashing on a bench or in the plane until sun up. I'd personally rather do that than a night van ride, but I'd rather do a night van ride to town than take off at night there knowing I had no airport lights if I pooped a motor on departure. Not that pooping a motor on departure from Catalina in the daytime is great either.

Reminds me a bit of when a friend of several of my friends was lost when her boyfriend (a new PPL) departed Shetler Cove on the NorCal coast at night with that airport being unlit. The aircraft was never found, I wonder if they had tried to return.

Not throwing stones as this could have nothing to do with either accident at the end of the day, but using unlit remote coastal cliff airports after dark is not a good look if it does end up in a departure accident report for sure.
 
Also just to give Max more angst during one of my stage checks with another instructor (other instructors were used to gage a students progress to ensure there wasn't any bias) after take off the instructor blindfolded me and told me to just sit on my hands for a few minutes, I think this was during or prior to me being signed off for solo cross countries. I any case I sat blindfolded for about twenty minutes of steep turns and various climbs and descents that I can only assume were meant to disorient me, when the instructor told me to take off the blindfold and take over we were in a canyon, below the ridges on either side, in a bank to the left, in a nose up attitude with the throttle at idle at about 10 knots above a stall. He just sat back, crossed his arms across his chest and said "Let's go home.". I did what I was trained to do, the first thing was to get this airplane flying normally and that meant level the wings, drop the nose to level and mash the throttle to initiate a climb. The next thing to do was figure out where we were, I did have charts but I was also fairly familiar with the region so after a few minutes of climbing I spotted a lake and a road (Lake Piru and the 126) and I knew exactly where I was so I just flew us back to Burbank without looking at a chart. I never asked any of the other students if they were treated to this sort of challenge but I passed and continued to move on through my training.
 
There was a case in Florida, like an Australian husband and an American wife, he took up flying, took off out of a beach airport straight over the water at night, and then crashed. Night conditions where the coastline disappears and a VFR pilot doesn’t know up from down, spatial disorientation x graveyard spiral, etc.


I think it’s important for instructors to let their students at least see that, even as PPL student. So the day it happens, it’s not the first time.
 
I absolutely want my students to experience IMC before they get their PPL.

Where's the problem here? What would a PPL fix? You know that a CFI (non FII) can provide instrument instruction to a primary student, right?

I'm not sure what the pearl clutching is about here.


Exactly. It’s incumbent upon you to show one of the top killers in aviation and how it plays out. Could have prevented the Florida case above.
 
Young @knot4u was with his CFI, so that dulls the cut a bit. But in my inexperience of being an instructor, I'm not sure if a student pilot even with his instructor sitting tandem has the skills fly in those conditions. But Methuselah, I mean @knot4u is older, they did flight training different then, they do it today. You used to learn spin training in PPL. In today's one size fits all primary training world, I just I can't see this type of stuff happening as a student pilot. He survived to tell the tale. All's well that ends well. I guess my shock was that, that wouldn't probably happen in today's "big box" flight schools, with company written training lessons, that CFI's aren't allowed to deviate from. Strict six month accelerated training programs, And only being able to do x-countries to management/company approved airports.

I hate to be "that person" to say this, but I'm going to:
Flight training standards have slipped to a dangerous level. We're teaching people to follow recipes, to be line cooks, to prepare the exact meal the examiner wants. But that's not enough to be PIC—to be PIC, you need to be a chef. Often the aviation gods will give you filet mignon and asparagus au poivre, with everything in pre-packaged amounts, but sometimes you'll get cow intestines and chicken livers, and you'd better be able to make something edible.

This isn't "old and crusty" versus "new and smart," it's literally knowledge banking versus building a true, professional understanding of a subject.

My students will learn to navigate using navlogs and dr. They will learn VOR navigation. They will learn to use proper pilotage. They will receive more than just an "intro" to hood work, and if I can get them into IMC, even better. If I can take them up for spins, I absolutely do that, too.

The first time you encounter IMC shouldn't be as a new PPL flying on a moonless night, with the sudden sinking feeling that you've lost the ground lights.

Most of my FOs are good, but they don't know what they don't know. They're children of the magenta, for real. Children of the gouge. And the captains they often fly with, these days, are the same as they are. They put up a finger to silence me when I'm calling for a configuration change or checklist, if they decide they must answer ATC, they literally show up with kneeboards and "CRAFT" pads, they write down every radio call, to the point that they miss calls due to writing, rather than configuring the airplane appropriately, and so on. I'm wearing four different hats: CFI, mentor, crewmember and captain. And whereas the weight used to be "Crewmember, mentor, captain, cfi", it's now shifted to "Captain, CFI, mentor" with "crewmember" hanging on by the tail and occasionally making an appearance when I fly with the rare senior FO that hasn't been forced into the left seat.

The reason that things are shifting is that we're seeing the influence of senior captains (or even mid-seniority captains) start to fade away. Most of the captains these FOs fly with have 1100 hours of 121 time after being a CFI, and many of them didn't spend a ton of time flying with the super senior folks, so the inexperience is starting to compound. But it's not just the airlines—it's aviation as a whole. There aren't many new ways to kill yourself in this business, but if you're not prepared to handle all the normal banal ways that people kill themselves, you're set up for failure.
 
I'm unsure of how much flying over large bodies of water at night you've done but on a moonless night it gets real dark after you pass the coast. It was a very clever way to teach me a valuable lesson without putting anyone in any real danger

There was a case in Florida, like an Australian husband and an American wife, he took up flying, took off out of a beach airport straight over the water at night, and then crashed. Night conditions where the coastline disappears and a VFR pilot doesn’t know up from down, spatial disorientation x graveyard spiral, etc.


I think it’s important for instructors to let their students at least see that, even as PPL student. So the day it happens, it’s not the first time.
Yes. Even doing a moonless night SF Bay Tour feels like IMC when you turn over the GG Bridge facing the Pacific or head up the coast towards HAF. Even the pattern at HAF on a dark night requires close attention to instruments as you feel that spatial disorienting phenomenon fairly often. Definitely want a new PPL to know how to handle those situations as yanking and banking with no visual cues has killed a ton of people who were far from new PPLs.
 
Yes. Even doing a moonless night SF Bay Tour feels like IMC when you turn over the GG Bridge facing the Pacific or head up the coast towards HAF. Even the pattern at HAF on a dark night requires close attention to instruments as you feel that spatial disorienting phenomenon fairly often. Definitely want a new PPL to know how to handle those situations as yanking and banking with no visual cues has killed a ton of people who were far from new PPLs.
This is a terribly common phenomenon whereby a fresh PPL takes their partner out to dinner at (coastal station) on a clear day that turns into a moonless night, dinner runs late and loss of control-inflight ensues.
 
So, is this situation that you describe more like a JFK Jr. situation? Flying over a body of water at night, moonless night in Jr's situation. Jr. was a PPL rated pilot, not IR and well, we all know what happened.

Yup. And sometimes, the best way to learn it’s not the best thing to do, is have the CFI oversee you doing it in order to let the object lesson come fully across. In their case, all that had to be done was then back towards the shore, the lights on shore, and fly a parallel route over land back to their home airport. Easy way to safely learn something that one hasn’t seen before, and thus would only assume that it’s “just ole night VFR,
Clear and a million Wx”.
 
Speaking of news article content now, was there something you didn’t like about that specific article?



Is it the use of the word “clearance” instead of “permission”? The last sentence quoted above gives enough clarity for the non-aviation reader, I would think, to avoid the semantic error being detrimental to proper understanding of the situation.

Not given “clearance to takeoff” sounds like an official thing and a ATC violation. And this is my problem with your media grading system ranking this source as highly accurate and least biased.


Yeah, the bolded portion is the truth, buried deep in the bottom of the article. But the clickbait is the headline.


So is Avalon SXC a Class B, C, or D airport? Oh wait, no operating control tower? Then there was no “clearance for takeoff” needed. Did the media bother to explain if there was even a control tower on the field?


Airport management (now I’m picturing HOA leadership) can make all the rules they want. It’s a rule, not a FAR legality, and no “clearance” to take off was needed.




Goes back to my point, my SME is Aviation, and even these “accurate and least biased” news sites still manage to screw it up. So what other topics are they screwing up, that I’m not a SME on, and therefore don’t know? That’s why I have to take any article with a gain of salt.

You’re really looking for that level of detail and correctness, and you regularly read DailyMail?

My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.
 
I got my PPL in Sept 2001. I remember learning about VOR's and radials. We flew off the TUS vortac, like once. Only as a brief introduction to VORTAC's, I remember him saying that it wasn't necessary to dive to deep into that stuff right then. As it wasn't on the checkride and that I'd learn more about it during IR. That said, I got my whopping .05 of actual in my logbook in SLC, not as a student pilot though. But during actual IFR training. Damn sure wouldn't have got it in Tucson, AZ.

These days, the only instrument work many students and CFIs have done, revolves completely around the Stanfield Stack. 😂
 
You’re really looking for that level of detail and correctness, and you regularly read DailyMail?

My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

For aviation? Yes.

And as I’ve stated - and done in the past - I like DM for pics and videos. They have the most for whatever given incident. And, thanks to you, I also usually put another link from another source if the DM article sounds fishy.
 
Checkrides in our G500H/G750 equipped helos, I’ll give one GPS-based approach, and one ground-based approach. Both full procedure approaches that had an airborne clearance issued with them including a V or T airway for the pilot to write and create a flight plan out of. The GPS approach being first, demonstrates that the examinee knows how to load a flight plan that matches the clearance as well as an approach and use the G750. Therefore, for the ground-based approach, I don’t let them load anything into the GPS. No magenta line to follow, no hold depicted, map zoomed out…..raw data only. All they get to use is the Nav radio frequencies, the VOR radial/DME info, and the ground speed. Everything else is on the G500 only. Encourage them to call up the RMI needle as a second CDI source and how to actually use it to navigate with. You’d be amazed how many pilots have trouble with raw data situational awareness, even with a Garmin system (which provides a ton of info even in raw data), with no magenta line to follow on an overlay approach. A DME arc is like Greek to them, even though with the RMI it’s easy, or without it and you he old twist/turn 10, it’s still a way…just a little more work. Too bad. Learn, or re-learn, the basics. Keep those skills up. They will help immensely with all of the easier instrument stuff.
 
For aviation? Yes.

And as I’ve stated - and done in the past - I like DM for pics and videos. They have the most for whatever given incident. And, thanks to you, I also usually put another link from another source if the DM article sounds fishy.

Another idiotically-written article by some dimwit bonehead at CBS, and an article editor who’s likely just as ignorant.

“Spy mission”. Really? An armed-Reconnaissance mission is a normal daily military combat mission, thousands of which were flown during the war, where an armed aircraft doesn’t have a specific target, and is cleared to an enemy area to go look for targets. It’s not a “spy mission”, ala some Gary Powers U-2 mission over the Soviet Union.

And “aircraft carriers moored in waters off of north Vietnam”. Do these idiots even know what the term “moored” means? Aircraft carriers and their supporting ships don’t just come to a stop, drop anchor in the middle of the Tonkin Gulf, and become some floating airport. They are underway at all times, launching and recovering aircraft. There’s no “mooring” to be had.

 
To carry over from the “Rant” thread, this topic being discussed is why I love simulators. You can quickly change the weather to inadvertent IMC and let the student a) figure out where they are and b) figure out how to get home. It’s an eye-opening experience.

There is so much emphasis on looking outside and see-and-avoid, but how many mid-airs do we have compared to spatial disorientation related crashes? We need to be careful about an over reliance on instruments and ForeFlight/TCAS/ADS-B, but seems like not teaching instruments is a huge risk.


View: https://youtu.be/1mTwpplTnb4?si=ML1csp-rStPTxXRV



Also on this subject, check out the Icarus view-limiting device. Very cool invention to teach IIMC by instituting the unknown “startle factor” compared to “throw on the hood.” IIMC is a huge killer in helicopter operations, which is what the Icarus was designed for, but I think it’s useful in GA training ops as well.
 
But in my inexperience of being an instructor, I'm not sure if a student pilot even with his instructor sitting tandem has the skills fly in those conditions. But Methuselah, I mean @knot4u is older, they did flight training different then, they do it today.
Do you know what tandem means in an airplane? I'm not that old, all of my instruction was done sitting next to my instructor not forward or behind. I do have some time in an S2B and I was sitting up front, damn near had to get naked to ensure I didn't have anything on me that might fall out of my pockets when things got all upside downy and you're smile is forced into a frown because once a long time ago a Pitts crashed because a dime got caught in the elevator linkage. The owner (a friend, RIP Solo/Wayne Richards) had lockers in his hangar to ensure the security of any valuables that he would not let you bring on board. When I say naked I'm not saying a strip search, I always wore jeans and a t-shirt but he'd check your pockets before he fitted the parachute. I miss Wayne, he was a special, unique person. He died in a Thunder Mustang after the engine failed.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZXCD2FGcRo
 
Fixed wing jet ops is another thing they prohibited at Catalina at night too. Been in there at night before, but not landing at the airport, since it’s in the middle of nowhere.
 
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