CAPT program

[Seth_Beckhardt]

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Okay Seth, from the website:
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CAPT graduates are ready for the real world of the airlines immediately upon graduation. As a result, CAPT graduates are sought after by airlines across the country.


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So how many graduates have been hired "immediately upon graduation"? Who hired them?

How many students have enrolled in the CAPT program since the beginning?

How many hours will a typical CAPT student leave with?How many of those hours are multi-engine? (I'm looking for actual flight hours not FTD)

Is the CFI still not a part of the program? If not, how do graduates of the program build hours after completion of the program?

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Currently, CAPT has placed 14 out of 20 graduates with either regional airlines or a freight operator (70%). The organizations we have placed them with are ASA, Piedmont and Focus. The average time to hire right now is approximately 30 days, but that average is based on the almost immediate hiring of several of our graduates (meaning that the average will change over time). Of the remaining six who have not been placed we are updating their packets for the next call for resumes.

The numbers of students who have enrolled in the program since August of 2003 is 86.

The total number of hours that program graduates leave with is approximately 325 hours based on our TCOs. Of this 225 hours is piston aircraft flight training. Our Level D simulator accounts for approximately 100 hours of flight. As you can tell from our placement rate, hiring organizations are less concerned with total hours than with the quality of the individual and the program.

CFI/CFII/MEI ratings are still not offered as part of the program although that may change in the future. Once again, because of our success at placing graduates, we are confident that the airlines will continue to consider us as one source for potential employees. We will continue to address instructor ratings as warrants.

I hope this answers all your questions.

Regards,

Seth

 

[EatSleepFly]

Focus?

As in Focus, the upstart with one 747 in South FL that doesn't have a certificate and hasn't flown any proving runs yet?

Nice! That'd be high on my list to work for after dropping rediculous coin on an MD-90 (er...DC-9, or whatever) type rating.

Is it true that they have to work in dispatch first, then as FE, then as F/O? I heard one year at each position.

So the CAPT program is what, $80k? After interest and all that, a "graduate" is probably paying back a good $120,000 after interest on a salary of no more than $30k for the first several years. I'm having a lot trouble figuring out how the benefits outweigh the insane costs.

Of course, that's assuming that this upstart even lasts more than a year or two. Boy would it suck to get furloughed or laid off or fail out of training (oh right, that wouldn't happen, this is ERAU we're talking about) with 500 hours and a useless type rating with zero time in type.

What exactly is CAPT trying to accomplish anyways?

 

[project7]

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14 out of 20 graduates with either regional airlines or a freight operator (70%)

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The numbers of students who have enrolled in the program since August of 2003 is 86.

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This is a good example of a point which is brought up repeatedly in many of the flight training forums. We often encounter the "90something percent placement record" with most academies, but the math is always a little odd. Some may count this as 14 out of 20, some may count it as 14 out of 86. I have to give you credit for giving us the actual numbers though.

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As you can tell from our placement rate, hiring organizations are less concerned with total hours than with the quality of the individual and the program.



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Actually, I can't tell that from anything. I realize that if academies had their way, airlines would hire their graduates directly because of expensive jet-transition type programs since this means max revenue for the academy. Sorry, but I don't believe this is completely true or ethical.

Please take my criticisms as opinion and as a form of feedback, it's not my intent to offend. Welcome to Jetcareers, I hope more academies will follow your lead and designate a representative to answer our questions.

 

[Seth_Beckhardt]

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This is a good example of a point which is brought up repeatedly in many of the flight training forums. We often encounter the "90something percent placement record" with most academies, but the math is always a little odd. Some may count this as 14 out of 20, some may count it as 14 out of 86. I have to give you credit for giving us the actual numbers though.

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As you can tell from our placement rate, hiring organizations are less concerned with total hours than with the quality of the individual and the program.



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Actually, I can't tell that from anything. I realize that if academies had their way, airlines would hire their graduates directly because of expensive jet-transition type programs since this means max revenue for the academy. Sorry, but I don't believe this is completely true or ethical.

Please take my criticisms as opinion and as a form of feedback, it's not my intent to offend. Welcome to Jetcareers, I hope more academies will follow your lead and designate a representative to answer our questions.

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I agree that the numbers and statistics can be skewed, but I was answering based on graduates of the program. As more of our students graduate these numbers will adjust accordingly and we will have to "evolve" the program as a result.

Unfortunately, I cannot quote the revenue numbers because I'm not privvy to them, but the basis for an individual's decision to pursue a professional flight career - I believe - should not place a great deal of emphasis on a training organization's margin, but whether the program delivers the highest quality training. This is a personal and life-changing decision and should never be taken lightly.

Finally, as I said earlier, I welcome debate because the flow of alternate views and training philosophies strengthen the foundation of the industry.

 

[project7]

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So the CAPT program is what, $80k? After interest and all that, a "graduate" is probably paying back a good $120,000 after interest on a salary of no more than $30k for the first several years. I'm having a lot trouble figuring out how the benefits outweigh the insane costs.

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On their website there's a guy who did his degree at ERAU and then went to CAPT. Assuming that he did his degree on-campus, his total costs would be in the neighborhood of $200k.

Dang!

 

[montanapilot]

What good is a type rating at 300some hours with no actual time in the airplane? In my opinion it just says that your a sucker with alot of coin.

Why the DC-9 variant anyway? (it died when the 717 got cut). Why not something that is at least in production? Like say a 737 or A320?

In my opinion the scheme is genius from a moneymaking perspective. All you gotta get is a kick ass sim (MD-90), a few new gee-whiz GA aircraft (The Diamonds), label it as "Airline Quality Training" (lean ERAUs reputation) and the masses come to your doorstep with fist-fulls of cash ready to get on the "fast track"

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Pilot Monitoring (PM, Pilot Not Flying) – Defined as that time that the pilot actively participates in the conduct of flight. This could be as Second in Command (SIC) time when the aircraft or the operator requires two pilots, or the equivalent activities of a SIC on aircraft not requiring two pilots.

Aeronautical Experience (AE)—The total experience as a pilot combining PF and PM, including that time receiving instruction from a qualified instructor.


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Please explain a little more about your logging requirements. They seem a little shady at best.


(Seth, please don't take this as an attack on you, I respect you for coming here)

 

[Seth_Beckhardt]

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What good is a type rating at 300some hours with no actual time in the airplane? In my opinion it just says that your a sucker with alot of coin.

Why the DC-9 variant anyway? (it died when the 717 got cut). Why not something that is at least in production? Like say a 737 or A320?

In my opinion the scheme is genius from a moneymaking perspective. All you gotta get is a kick ass sim (MD-90), a few new gee-whiz GA aircraft (The Diamonds), label it as "Airline Quality Training" (lean ERAUs reputation) and the masses come to your doorstep with fist-fulls of cash ready to get on the "fast track"

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Pilot Monitoring (PM, Pilot Not Flying) – Defined as that time that the pilot actively participates in the conduct of flight. This could be as Second in Command (SIC) time when the aircraft or the operator requires two pilots, or the equivalent activities of a SIC on aircraft not requiring two pilots.

Aeronautical Experience (AE)—The total experience as a pilot combining PF and PM, including that time receiving instruction from a qualified instructor.


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Please explain a little more about your logging requirements. They seem a little shady at best.


(Seth, please don't take this as an attack on you, I respect you for coming here)

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No problem, I don't consider it an attack and it's an issue that we continue to address. Rather than answer right now, I will get with the manager of our sim operations tomorrow. He has been working very closely with our FAA POI who has clarified many of the issues on loggable time.

The same issues of loggable time crop up over and over again in other training issues. If you want to start a debate at any FBO or other training venue, simply bring up the "acting PIC" vice "PIC" issue.

 

[MikeD]

As an aside, it would be good for a rep from PanAm (the other "south central" part of this website) to come and do the same thing Mr. Beckhardt is doing. Though I have my own views on ERAUs CAPT program, as well as a number of other things I'm disappointed with regards ERAUs operations as an alumni; I appreciate Mr. Beckhardts taking the time here. Other schools should take the opportunity to give their perspective from the horse's mouth (or horse's a$%, depending....

). But seriously, maybe we can put some hotbed issues to rest here, or further discuss them. Again, I wish PanAm and others would try this out.

 

[kellwolf]

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If you want to start a debate at any FBO or other training venue, simply bring up the "acting PIC" vice "PIC" issue.

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Well, I can actually argue that one using FARs and definitions found therein. As far as "pilot monitoring," it's kinda hard to have a PM when there is no way there can be an SIC (Diamond is only cert for single pilot). If you're talking "under the hood" stuff when you mean "PIC" and "acting PIC," then you can actually back that up with the FARs since the safety pilot is a required crew member. Not sure how a "pilot monitoring" is a required crew member. If you're talking "acting PIC" in regards to commercial multi PIC requirements, then student is the sole manipulator, but the MEI has to be there for insurance reasons.

Now, how many of those 86 since 2003 have actually finished? How many dropped out due to financial or other reasons? I've just heard the "high percentage" placement rating from too many academy types, and there's no way EVERY academy can have that high of a placement rate. At least not at the airlines as most claim, there's not that many jobs out there. Plus, you say CAPT students graduate with roughly 325 TT, and personally, I consider that a liability for the airlines. Here's why: a Diamond and some MD-90 sim time are not what ASA, Focus or any of the other regionals are flying. I also have to agree that the MD-90 is a totally useless type rating. By the time most of these students make it to the level where they MIGHT need the type, the MD-90/DC-9/717 will more than likely be parked in the desert or relegated to night freight.

 

[project7]

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it's kinda hard to have a PM when there is no way there can be an SIC (Diamond is only cert for single pilot). If you're talking "under the hood" stuff when you mean "PIC" and "acting PIC," then you can actually back that up with the FARs since the safety pilot is a required crew member

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I have to go with Kellwolf on this one. What may end up happening is that they will say something to the extent of "You can technically log anything you want and justify it when someone questions it". I wouldn't want to be justifying any scandalous logged flight time during an interview.

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If you're talking "acting PIC" in regards to commercial multi PIC requirements, then student is the sole manipulator, but the MEI has to be there for insurance reasons.



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Bingo. There is no "or performing the duties of pilot in command" notation on the single-engine requirements for the commercial. Therefore you are SOL on the diamond star.

In either case, there seems to be some sketchy stuff going on. Everyone is subject to the same FARs. Even Riddle.

 

[kellwolf]

Yeah, I'm pretty up on the whole logging of acting PIC in MEs now. Spent 20 minutes on the phone with the Dallas FSDO and 20 minutes on the phone with AOPA getting logging questions answered. Some of my "acting PIC" time for my Comm ME initial wasn't endorsed by my MEI, so we were trying to find out if I would have to re-fly those flights again. That instructor is now at XJT, but I left voice mail, so maybe I can get something in writing from him.....

 

[crashmbern]

the reason why they bought the MD-90 sim is because they got it for like $2 million. why is it so cheap because no one needs it anymore. kind of like a thrift shop.

adam

 

[project7]

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the reason why they bought the MD-90 sim is because they got it for like $2 million. why is it so cheap because no one needs it anymore. kind of like a thrift shop

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That's kinda what I figured.

 

[Seth_Beckhardt]

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Now, how many of those 86 since 2003 have actually finished?

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There have been a total of 20 who have completed and graduated from the program. An additional six will graduate this Friday.

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How many dropped out due to financial or other reasons?

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A total of seven students have dropped from the program for a variety of reasons.

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I've just heard the "high percentage" placement rating from too many academy types, and there's no way EVERY academy can have that high of a placement rate. At least not at the airlines as most claim, there's not that many jobs out there.

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I have to disagree with you here. Here are the hard numbers on hiring from the managers who we've spoken to:

Pinnacle - 80/month
Sky West - 40/month
Express Jet - 100/month
Chautauqua - 45/month
ASA - 60/month
Piedmont - 15/month
Jet Blue - 400 pilots for the year
Air Tran - 350 pilots for the year

In addition, Continental main line is now hiring. Also, one of our instructors just got called back from furlough for Delta. A good source for this information - available to anyone - is Air Inc (http://www.jet-jobs.com).


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Plus, you say CAPT students graduate with roughly 325 TT, and personally, I consider that a liability for the airlines. Here's why: a Diamond and some MD-90 sim time are not what ASA, Focus or any of the other regionals are flying. I also have to agree that the MD-90 is a totally useless type rating. By the time most of these students make it to the level where they MIGHT need the type, the MD-90/DC-9/717 will more than likely be parked in the desert or relegated to night freight.

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I will agree that the DC-9 type rating on an MD-90 has very limited use here in the U.S., but I disagree in terms of the value of the rating. Our MD-90 EFD simulator is an all glass flight deck with auto-throttle and certified for auto-land. Hiring managers are constantly trying to reduce the amount of risk associated with their hiring decisions because of the enormous expense associated with bringing a new pilot on board. The type rating - because it mirrors the full 31-day training footprint - assures the managers that a new hire is capable of handling the enormous workload associated with the organization's training (one of our graduates, who is currently in ground school at Piedmont, compared it to Niagra Falls).

 

[MikeD]

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A good source for this information - available to anyone - is Air Inc (http://www.jet-jobs.com).


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Please tell me you guys don't buy into Air INCs hype...........the whole "airlines are going to be hiring 100,000 guys over the next two years" stuff.

 

[EatSleepFly]

I didn't mean any offense in my post above, but I seriously am curious about the guys going to Focus. Can you shed any more light on that?

It seems a pretty risky move to me. Last I heard from a friend down there, they still didn't have an operating certificate nor had they flown any proving runs.

In any case, while I don't agree with the CAPT program itself, I respect you for actually coming here to answer questions. Welcome.

 

[kellwolf]

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Pinnacle - 80/month
Sky West - 40/month
Express Jet - 100/month
Chautauqua - 45/month
ASA - 60/month
Piedmont - 15/month
Jet Blue - 400 pilots for the year
Air Tran - 350 pilots for the year

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Gotta call "double dipping" on this one. I'm sure the regional numbers are taking into account the newly found attrition to places like jetBlue, SWA, AirTran and America West. Your grads AREN'T getting hired by jetBlue and AirTran, so those figures don't mean much to them. I guess I should have clarified and said "there aren't that many jobs out there they are QUALIFIED for with 325 hours." You can't tell me all of those airlines are going to hire your grads based on your program and the ERAU name with 325 hours. Their insurance companies would either drop them or raise their rates.

Plus, I don't consider Air Inc a valid source of industry information. Kit Darby has been pedalling the whole "pilot shortage" line for years. If there WAS a pilot shortage, you wouldn't even have a CAPT program since guys could get hired off the street with low time.

 

[francais]

who would you trust for industry numbers and how could you quantify these figures. Following nothing more than aircraft projections from Southwest, a rather conservative and successful airline, the billion passengers in the U.S. by 2012 doesn't seem outlandish. There is noone that isn't projecting huge growth in this industry so I only wonder to which figures do you give heed?

 

[kellwolf]

I'd have no problem giving credence to an impartial analysis. Air Inc's philosophy is "Airlines are hiring. Buy my book and products to find out who and how to get hired." Anyone that keeps harping on a pilot shortage the way Air Inc often does is out to sell you something.

If Air Inc wasn't playing the numbers to sell their own product, then I'd trust them. The hiring numbers quoted above came from managers that CAPT has been in contact with. I'm not saying their wrong, I'm just saying Air Inc isn't the best source for industry information. I'm sure if you do some digging, you'll find I'm not even CLOSE to alone in that opinion.

 

[francais]

I appreciate your quick response yet you didn't answer my question. To what source do you turn for the supernal truth about industry projections? I only ask because having monitored the posts one could ascertain that you have interest in the industry and wish to continue beyond your instructing days. So you must have a source for info.