CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK!!!

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

As a alumni of ERAU, I have a lot of problems with the CAPT program. I doubt if you can find a single graduate of ERAU that'd speak highly of CAPT except those you find in the glossy magazine ads or on the university brochure.

Sorry ERAU, I'm just calling it like I see it!
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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You said it Brian! It is their decision and there is no reason to not just support them. Some of them probably took out loans that will take them their first 10 years in the aviation industry to pay off, but just like doctors, dentists and everyone else, the 80K that you pay, is just 25% of what these other careers will set you back after medical school.

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This is training.

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funny how you have laid pretty low around here then all of the sudden, "Hey Everybody ERAU CAPT is the bombdigitty!!!!" and try to rub it in our faces because a measly 3 people made it through.

I think you posted in the wrong forum by the way. The place you wanna send this piece of propaganda is advertising@jetcareers.com
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

what I'm interested in is the atmosphere this will create in a crew room in the future. Probably everyone will be so professional that they will put it all behind them.
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Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

I don't think anyone thought that no one would ever make it through the CAPT program and get hired. We just knew the success rate would be dismal. And it is... ERAU was bound to buy/negotiate someone a slot before to long, they have spent too much money on this program.
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www.captiscrap.com still...
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Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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I don't think anyone thought that no one would ever make it through the CAPT program and get hired. We just knew the success rate would be dismal. And it is... ERAU was bound to buy/negotiate someone a slot before to long, they have spent too much money on this program.
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Are you saying ASA is such an unprofessional organization that they can be bought or negotiated into hiring unqualified people?
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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what I'm interested in is the atmosphere this will create in a crew room in the future. Probably everyone will be so professional that they will put it all behind them.

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If you want to see how professional pilots who earned their jobs feel about low-time pilots who paid to be there, head over to mesalounge and see how MAG pilots feel about MAPD grads.
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

My beef isn't with CAPT. I don't consider it PFT (or PFJ in this case) since you're not taking a job away from someone who would otherwise be paid to do it. My beef is with their techniques and procedures. Logging time from the back seat where you can't even REACH the controls is not even "iffy," it's downright wrong. It's like being an MEI and logging time in the back seat of a Seneca while you sleep. Also, their marketting is right up there with DCA. Sorry, and MD-90 type doesn't make you "marketable." It makes you a 300 hour pilot with a type. Last time I checked you still needed an ATP to actually USE the type, and you needed about 1200 hours more to get the ATP.

I don't begrudge the few that have gotten hired (although I would like to see an un-biased percentage of hired vs started training) their jobs. They made their choice, and it worked out for them. I just wouldn't make the same choice myself. It's already gonna be tight for the loans I've taken out, and it's not even close to what they did......
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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funny how you have laid pretty low around here then all of the sudden, "Hey Everybody ERAU CAPT is the bombdigitty!!!!" and try to rub it in our faces because a measly 3 people made it through.

I think you posted in the wrong forum by the way. The place you wanna send this piece of propaganda is advertising@jetcareers.com

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You're a pilot right? Be a little professional instead of sounding like a whiner. People make decisions. New things come into view and some take it head on and face the "challenge," while others just stand back in disgust.

Funny how I was laying low? Common here, I've been reading like crazy and now that I'm back from out of the country, I am once again looking forward to getting back into the pilot seat. I didn't say anything that CAPT is bombidggitty. I'm just happy for them. That's all. Seems as if you have someone or some mission out there.

Doug, there are a few ERAU students, and Airline Pilots that do think the CAPT program is revolutionary. On my recent flight to New York, I spoke to the FO and he said it was a good idea.

It takes someone who is "good" enough to pass their entrance exam and someone who is willing to pay and go through the intense year.
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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My beef is with their techniques and procedures. Logging time from the back seat where you can't even REACH the controls is not even "iffy," it's downright wrong. It's like being an MEI and logging time in the back seat of a Seneca while you sleep. Also, their marketting is right up there with DCA. Sorry, and MD-90 type doesn't make you "marketable." It makes you a 300 hour pilot with a type. Last time I checked you still needed an ATP to actually USE the type, and you needed about 1200 hours more to get the ATP.



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CAPT does not log backseat time. They use the backseater as an observer that integrates procedures, call outs, etc. The crew members always fly together and are responsible for the planning, execution and debrief of the flight. The instructor acts as a facilitator and teaches the crew how to debrief and critique in a professional manner. I have seen their faciliites and set up and they conduct their training just like our airline. If I had gone there, I would have been a CFI by the time I got my instrument rating. By the way, their backseaters are more involved in the conduct of the flight than a lot of my first officers! Who would you rather hire? A CFI with 1500 dual given in the last 3 years (sitting in the right seat doing nothing) or a guy who can pass a FAA checkride in a 150,000 lb jet going M.85? Be honest.
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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Who would you rather hire? A CFI with 1500 dual given in the last 3 years (sitting in the right seat doing nothing) or a guy who can pass a FAA checkride in a 150,000 lb jet going M.85? Be honest.

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Honestly, it depends. First off, they passed the checkride in a sim, and as I said before, I don't see what the CRJ and DC-9 really have in common. It's like saying all twin engine aircraft fly the same by taking someone out of a Seminole and dropping them into a Golden Eagle. Second, it depends on the individual. You say the backseaters are involved in the flight planning, I ask why? Shouldn't the PIC be doing that, or does he begin to rely on the backseaters? I'm glad they stopped the backseat logging (when I talked to someone that was in the CAPT program while looking at flight schools in DAB, they were still doing it).

The CFI vs Sim Stud has been hashed out 8,000,000,000 times on the web site, and I find myself coming down on BOTH sides of the arguement depending on the training methods. For example, MAPD trains people in a sim similar to the CRJ since that's what the expected equipment will be. Now, take CAPT training in a DC-9 for CRJs. What happens when the FO has the ultimate human factor faux pas of reverting to the DC-9 training?
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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Who would you rather hire? A CFI with 1500 dual given in the last 3 years (sitting in the right seat doing nothing) or a guy who can pass a FAA checkride in a 150,000 lb jet going M.85? Be honest.

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The CFI, who meets insurance requirements and qualifies for the ATP.
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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You're a pilot right? Be a little professional instead of sounding like a whiner. People make decisions. New things come into view and some take it head on and face the "challenge," while others just stand back in disgust.

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So rather than address the issue you say i m a whiner? good one

speaking of maturity levels who is the one trying to peddle bullshat propaganda to everybody in an attempt to inform the "ignorant" and show up the "haters".
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Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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The CFI, who meets insurance requirements and qualifies for the ATP.

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Our insurance provider could care less about their flight time. As long as they have a commercial license with a multi-engine instrument rating and make it through the 1st month of hell and IOE they are happy. There are a lot of folks that got hired at ACA and ASA with 250 total pre 9/11 and they are now captains.
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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Our insurance provider could care less about their flight time. As long as they have a commercial license with a multi-engine instrument rating and make it through the 1st month of hell and IOE they are happy.

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Which company is this? I'll have commercial ratings in a few months, and I'd love to take on the challenge of ground school and IOE.

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There are a lot of folks that got hired at ACA and ASA with 250 total pre 9/11 and they are now captains.

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Unfortuantely, ACA/Independece just laid off a lot of people, and the industry was totally different prior to 2000. 9/11 just accelerated the inevitable. I wish it was still that way, then I wouldn't have to worry about fighting for students while starving on Ramen and Mac & Cheese for a year or so.
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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A CFI with 1500 dual given in the last 3 years (sitting in the right seat doing nothing)

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Tisk tisk tisk, I hope your previous (or current) CFI is not reading this, that would certainly not be a good "thank you."

I think you should reconsider your views on CFIs, for they certainly "do something."
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

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A CFI with 1500 dual given in the last 3 years (sitting in the right seat doing nothing)

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Tisk tisk tisk, I hope your previous (or current) CFI is not reading this, that would certainly not be a good "thank you."

I think you should reconsider your views on CFIs, for they certainly "do something."

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My CFI had over 3000 hrs dual given in 1990 when it was tough getting a job and he told me he was looking for an airline job so could get to fly again. I had 4000 hrs dual given by 1995. Eventually, you get so good at teaching that you hardly ever have to touch the controls and your proficiency goes to hell. Your ADM is top notch though!
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

Although there are some very insightful comments on the CAPT program in this thread I keep waiting for someone to analyze the program from an economic rather than a flying perspective. Since nobody has picked up on this, I'll attempt:

Point 1: Both the CFI/CFII/MEI and the ab initio tracks are valid methodologies and provide a motivated pilot the opportunity to move into the airlines. The CFI track is predicated on the premise that a pilot "should pay his/her dues" before being allowed to enter the rarified arena of the airlines. The ab initio program is predicated on a fast track philosophy that selects individuals based on their potential to complete a total immersion program that culminates in a type rating course (thus mirroring a new hire course at the airlines). The assumption, of course, is that both tracks work as evidenced by the quality of the pilots that both methodologies produce.

Point 2: An ab initio program graduate has the potential to be hired by an airline based on his/her demonstrated ability to successfully complete a type-rating course and pass a full FAA rate ride (in CAPT's case, since the program is not affiliated with a Part 121 operation the rate ride requires far more in terms of demonstrated ability with the overriding consideration being command judgement). Furthermore the CAPT candidate pays an extraordinary sum of money ($65,500 for the initial classes, it has since increased to $80,000) for a potential ROI during the first year of employment of approximately $20,000.

Point 3: At this point the economic perspective becomes very clear. An ab initio new hire begins their career upon completion of a CAPT-type program. He/she will build seniority and after the initial year, a period where the new hire is on probation, will start to gain economically first as an FO and then second upgrading to the left seat at about the five year mark. Contrast this track with the pilot who follows the CFI track and will spend anywhere from 5 - 10 years instructing, flying freight, and, just prior to being hired by a regional, flying in a part 135 operation. This succession of low paying jobs are all part of "dues paying" but in the final analysis they are personal economic killers. This track produces excellent pilots, but chances are for every individual who finally makes it to the regionals - at the same abysmal first year pay and at the bottom of the seniority list - there are probably dozens who don't.

Clearly, we, as pilots, shoot ourselves in the foot many times because of the "I'll fly for food" mentality. CAPT-type programs simply offer an alternative to the traditional methodology. Now that the airlines have bought into this type of training program it may be time to evaluate one's career path from the economic rather than the flying perspective.
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

From the economic stand point, I would rather borrow $30K and instruct than $110K and starve at a regional.
 
Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

That's your personal choice and nobody has the right to argue against it. However, as I posted previously, project the CFI track of 5 - 10 years against the potential total income earned at a regional during the same time period (a good source for regional pilot pay is found at http://www.airlinepilotpay.com ).
 
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