CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK!!!

[derg]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]


Doug, there are a few ERAU students, and Airline Pilots that do think the CAPT program is revolutionary. On my recent flight to New York, I spoke to the FO and he said it was a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's great, seriously. But considering you've come to jetcareers.com, you're de facto asking our opinion. From what I've experienced in the industry, from what I've read about the program, from what I've learned as a ERAU Aeronautical Science graduate, from what I know about what you can and cannot train in a university environment and also considering what I'd tell my son, I steadfastly have no faith in the CAPT program.

I'm not sure if you're looking for thoughful advice before making a decision or grasping at reassurance about decisions already made.

 

[derg]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
Who would you rather hire? A CFI with 1500 dual given in the last 3 years (sitting in the right seat doing nothing) or a guy who can pass a FAA checkride in a 150,000 lb jet going M.85? Be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither. I'm going to hire a pilot who is trainable and who is best going to fit into my corporate environment. The last thing I want is a pilot in the right seat who thinks he's hot sh*t because he's a Riddle graduate of CAPT.

Here's something you normally wouldn't read in the glossy magazine advertisements. Lets say that in a perfect world, everyone flew MD-90's in the airline business. The casual observer would say "Hey! That guy who did the MD-90 CAPT training can easily go to any airline and fly the MD-90!"

Not necessarily true.

Each airline has different training syllabuses and flies the aircraft a different way.

Real world example. When I went thru 727 flight engineer initial training, who would you think had the most problems with training? The former F-16 pilots, the former regional pilots or the former 727 flight engineers?

(cue the music from "Jeapordy")

*ding!* Times up!

The former 727 flight engineers.

The students without prior 727 experience approached training with an open mind. If a valve closed at a certain PSI from a particular bus, so be it, and that was the answer.

For a lot of the former 727 flight engineers, their previous airline taught things differently so they'd have to wrestle with 'unlearning' or 'exercising the demons' from their previous operator.

It's really a bad example, but if it's a job flying a Boeing 737, MD-90 simulator time isn't going to be all that much of a help because the systems are different, the numbers are different and all of those wonderful tricks you learned flying a MD simulator with a MD flight guidance control panel aren't going to transfer a bit into the 737. I had a thousand hours of 737 time and the MD-88/90 training whipped my ass because I had to exercise old Boeing demons out of my system.

If I went to American and went thru their Super-80 program it'd probably whip my ass because all of the callouts are different, some of their systems are different, limitations are probably a lot different and their procedures are certainly different. And I've probably got 3500 hours of MD-88/90 experience.

Besides, an MD-90 won't do .85 if you begged it and the maximum gross weight is actually 160,500.

Anyone else see any relevance that I'm actually a fairly satisfied ERAU AS graduate that isn't a fan of CAPT?

 

[derg]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

Economically, $30K in extra training and up to six figures in student loan debt is pretty ill, especially in a industry that one day you can be a brand new hire CL-65 FO, and the next you could be on the street with 300 hours and $130,000 in student loan debt.

In the same "best case scenario" you have to look at a realistic "worst case scenario" as well.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst, and I certainly wouldn't suggest digging myself into a deep debt hole because airlinepilotpay.com or any other website indicates figures that indicate that I'll potentially be able to dig myself out of that self-imposed (and highly uneccessary) debt hole in the future.

Now if you're going to dig yourself a six figure debt hole for medical school, that's something else completely different than digging that deep for a $21/flight hour regional job.

If you guys come to jetcareers.com looking for insight from industry professionals, some of which are alumni, great. However, if you're going to have to bring a lot more than a glossy magazine ad and pie-in-the-sky university promises because as a proud five year graduate of the aeronautical science program, you're not telling me anything new that I haven't already heard.

It's a good school, but the CAPT thing is something I wouldn't consider whatsoever.

-Not because of jealosy because I "had" to become a CFI. That's outright silly.

-Not because ERAU screwed me and I want revenge. I wouldn't have stayed for five years and wouldn't still use the "ERAU Alumni/Proud to be an Eagle" keychain 12 years after I graduated if I felt I was screwed

-Not because I don't understand the program. There's a lot of things that go on behind the scenes at jetcareers and most of the people with a lot of the major flight programs I know on a first name basis.

-Not because I have some omniscient attitude about "paying your dues".

For those of you who are enrolled in the program who feel their toes just got stepped on, I'm sorry, but opinions are being openly solicited.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
project the CFI track of 5 - 10 years against the potential total income earned at a regional during the same time period (a good source for regional pilot pay is found at http://www.airlinepilotpay.com ).

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, the only 5-10 year CFIs I know are the ones that have CHOSEN to be CFIs. All the rest normally move onto charter, freight or airline gigs in a year or so......

 

[project7]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
Now that the airlines have bought into this type of training program it may be time to evaluate one's career path from the economic rather than the flying perspective.


[/ QUOTE ]
The reality is that the only program out there that actually comes close to being truly "ab initio" is MAPD. The airlines have not bought into this type of route, and probably won't to any large extent. Ab initio programs may exist in other countries, but here in the USA we have a damn good route (refering to flight instructing). It wasn't put in place intentonally, it developed naturally because it works.

Here's what I don't understand. People with no knowledge of the aviation industry will decide that they want to be an airline pilot. Fine. Then they will come up with their own thoughts about how the path to this goal should be before looking into how it's generally done, and 9 times out of 10 they will decide that there must be some way of going from 0 to airline pilot in one smooth, quick motion. Then they will actually believe that their own opinion about how things should be are the way things actually are.

It makes me think of the story Lloyd told us about a guy coming into his FBO and asking him if they would hire him as an instructor if he did his private there. Lloyd started to explain that there's much more to it than that, but the guy didn't want to hear it. The guy had already decided that what made sense to him must actually be reality.

If you want to go through CAPT, knock yourself out. Just don't be shocked when your little fantasy world gets blindsided by the harsh reality of this industry.

 

[goaround]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]

I'm going to hire a pilot who is trainable and who is best going to fit into my corporate environment. The last thing I want is a pilot in the right seat who thinks he's hot sh*t because he's a Riddle graduate of CAPT.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I am sure not all CAPT graduates think they are hot sh*t. Kind of like saying "Don't hire that furloughed Delta guy, he probably thinks he's hot sh*t". Sounds like a prejudicial attitude towards a group of people who share common traits. This is not exactly a statement that would fit in ANY corporate environment.

Anyway, when airline pilots get furloughed and go to work for another company, I do not think the fact that they have a type in another aircraft is viewed as a NEGATIVE and they are expected to have all kinds of trouble learning a new airplane. I think they get hired because of their aeronautical decision making and their intellectual ability to draw similarities between different types of airplanes.

Although, using your "human factors" argument actually supports hiring someone with a low time basic framework for learning a type as opposed to someone that has 2,000 of operating experience in an MD-90.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
I do not think the fact that they have a type in another aircraft is viewed as a NEGATIVE and they are expected to have all kinds of trouble learning a new airplane.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but type raiting does not equal ADM. Having a type doesn't really make you more marketable if you only have 300-500 hours. I just don't like CAPT's pitch that it does.

 

[CaptainChris87]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

those people probably do not even exist.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
those people probably do not even exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which people? The ones with type ratings and 300-500 hours? Sure they do. They're CAPT grads with a DC-9/MD-90 type......

 

[SmitteyB]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

This is a sad program. I've heard nothing but bad things about it. I'm glad that 3 grads got on with an airline after 2 years with them. Considering how much MORE you have to pay for this program, it's not worth it. I agree with montanapilot. I would definitely rather earn my job.

Welcome to jetcareers.com, you'll get used to this.

 

[NJA_Capt]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
Who would you rather hire...A CFI with 1500 dual given in the last 3 years (sitting in the right seat doing nothing) or a guy who can pass a FAA checkride in a 150,000 lb jet going M.85? Be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are both in the "right seat doing nothing" I guess it wouldn't matter it he had a $150,000 type.er ahhhh.......I mean 150,000# type rating or not eh?

And flying a 150,000# sim in the dark at .85 has how much in common with < .78 in a 70K# RJ??

Kellwolf, I got your back on this one. Give me the 1500 hour CFI with 3 years experience with people, weather and airport operations. Not the 6 month wonder with 40 hours in an air-conditioned simulator.

PS......Any guesses on how many US air carriers fly the MD90?

 

[Cosmo1999]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

here is what a typical graduate of the capt program will look like

Make sure you note that the money bags are empty and you will probably be fending off the repo man for years to come

 

[SmitteyB]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

I just feel bad for the people who fall for the program. Good Education for a degree, but job training?

BEWARE.

 

[UPSboxbeetch]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
PS......Any guesses on how many US air carriers fly the MD90?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna guess one, and that one only flies a handful of them. As far as useless type ratings go, this one is even more useless. They should at least offer something of the 737 variety....

 

[kellwolf]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
Good Education for a degree, but job training?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the degree may be extra......

 

[derg]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

Here's a little trivia as I sit back in the crew lounge avoiding the inevitable Jepp update. The MD-90 rating doesn't actually exist. If you earn a type in a Super-80, DC-9, MD-88, MD-90, Boeing 717 (including the MD-95 which is the same bird), all you get is....

...ahem, drumroll please...

A DC-9 type rating!

 

[EDUC8-or]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

I had two students come in who were looking for a professional pilot course. They were most interested with CAPT and a program from another school on the field. It's amazing to see how impressed they were with the "Airline Type" simulators.

One school took them on a tour and wouldn't show them the airplanes or the fancy sims they were so interested in. I showed them the sim we have as well as some of our airplanes and they weren't impressed with the sim. I also told them that there weren't many shortcuts in the industry and I reccomended getting the CFI and instructing and they said the other schools told them they could be in an RJ in "X" amount of hours. I told them it might be a good backup plan just to get the CFI in such an unstable industry, but their heads were full of the nonsense they had been fed before so they weren't having that. I didn't trash the other schools, but there sure are a lot of dishonest people out there who will do anything to get someone's buck.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

[ QUOTE ]
said the other schools told them they could be in an RJ in "X" amount of hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that figure was less than 1000, I'd seriously read the fine print......

 

[SmitteyB]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

Ari-Ben....Fort Pierce, FL and the online degree with Embry Riddle....total esitmated cost....

$74,495...From Zero to 1200TT/1000ME + 4-yr degree in aeronautics....

That's a damn good price to me...Or even ATP and doing Embry Riddle's Degree....

 

[montanapilot]

Re: CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK

still if you go FBO route and community college then on to a state school it can all be done for under 50Gs