Can I log PIC in...

C150J

Well-Known Member
Hello all!

A former instructor of mine wants me to right seat on a part 91 trip to Pittsburgh in a Cheyenne IIIA. I am an HP-endorsed multi pilot. Can I log PIC as a PF? Where do insurance stipulations come in (is there a difference between "PIC" and "sole manipulator of the controls?" Any insight? I'm assuming that I can't (I'll go for the experience nonetheless), but would love some feedback...

Thanks!
J.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
You can LOG it as PIC for the time you were sole manipulator. You cannot ACT as PIC unless you have the high altitude signoff, and basically ARE the PIC for the flight.

Big difference between logging and acting.

It would be much more valuable if he is an MEI and can sign your logbook.
 

CAVOK

New Member
Yep...you need the High Alt. But if he is an MEI, you can both get the trip in the logbook.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hello all!

A former instructor of mine wants me to right seat on a part 91 trip to Pittsburgh in a Cheyenne IIIA. I am an HP-endorsed multi pilot. Can I log PIC as a PF? Where do insurance stipulations come in (is there a difference between "PIC" and "sole manipulator of the controls?" Any insight? I'm assuming that I can't (I'll go for the experience nonetheless), but would love some feedback...

Thanks!
J.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can log the sole manipulator time, no problem. As far as the insurance company goes, I wouldn't call them up and ask them if you can manipulate the controls because they're likely to say no. They're interested in the least risk possible, which means you not touching anything. What they don't know won't hurt them. So long as there is a PIC in a pilot seat that's on the policy, go for it. Ask an insurance company a "can I?" question will usually result in a "sure, your new premium is..." or a "no".

I've run into a situation before where a guy was flying his own airplane with an experienced pilot in the other seat, and his insurance company went nuts when they found out. They put him on the the Unapproved Pilots list in the policy, which means they didn't want him touching the controls at all, and actually came very close to cancelling his policy and denying him any coverage at all.

They wanted to see that he was basically qualified to be put on the policy in all regards except time in type before they would let him do any control manipulating at all. Once he met their requirements to be an approved pilot, except for the time in type, they let him fly with an experienced pilot for 25 hours or so to get some time in type, then signed him off to fly alone.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yep...you need the High Alt. But if he is an MEI, you can both get the trip in the logbook.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need the High Alt. to log it as sole manipulator. You would need it to ACT as PIC. Just to clarify...
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Time to jump in here. I highly suggest you don't log PIC Turbine for an aircraft you are not qualified to fly. I'm assuming your goals are to work for an airline and this is the kind of thing that interviewers will tear apart.

If you do not have a high altitude sign-off you are not qualified to act as PIC. There might be some quirk in the regulations that allows you to log PIC, but for what? For a rating? No rating requires PIC in a turbine aircraft.

For insurance purposes? Maybe. You might want to keep a separate log of "ride along" time.

I mistakenly logged a lot of "ride along" time in my book and I shouldn't have. Fortunately someone tipped me off before my Southwest interview and I entered a "correction page" in my logbook removing all that turbine PIC I logged from the right seat of king-airs.

They saw it, and I was told "It's a good thing you put in that correction page - we have disqualified pilots on that before." Exact quote!

You can log it as SIC. Part 91 has no restrictions on SIC time. If someone asks you why you did that, explain like this - "I was in the plane, I flew it, I manipulated the controls, but I was not PIC. How else should I log it?"
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Technically, you cannot log it as SIC either. The Cheyenne is a single pilot aircraft when operated under part 91.

Like I said before, best thing is probably to log PIC time when you're sole manipulator and have it signed by the pilot if he's an MEI. Nothing wrong with that at all- its just like receiving instruction in it.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Marsh I have to disagree. I can find no restrictions on logging SIC under part 61 (or 91.) Part 1 defines as follows: "Second in command means a pilot who is designated to be second in command of an aircraft during flight time."

The restriction is only given for aircraft or operations that require a second in command, i.e. under parts 135 and 121. You cannot log SIC in an aircraft unless you have taken an SIC (or PIC) checkride.

SIC is just what it says - second in command. Legally, a CFI riding along in a Cheyenne has been designated to assume command if the PIC becomes incapacitated. Therefore the CFI is SIC.

This does not apply to safety pilots either, since the operations now require two PICs, but if you ask five inspectors about this you'll get five different answers!

61.55 (e) says SIC does NOT apply to anyone: (4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Hmm...interesting. I could very well be wrong then, but I don't have time to dig up any FAR references to defend myself. Have to go add some of that SIC time to my logbook.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Marsh I have to disagree. I can find no restrictions on logging SIC under part 61 (or 91.)

[/ QUOTE ]What about 61.51(f)?

==============================
Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
==============================

Marsh is correct.
 

pscraig

Well-Known Member
This thread is both interesting and timely...I logged in today to ask just this question., I fly a lot of corporate trips in the right seat of an MU-2 but am confused about how to log the time. The MU-2 and the other pilot are single-pilot certified when the autopilot is used, which is rare when I am aboard. I am a high perf/high alt endorsed commercial multiengine rated pilot and MEI. I have not been logging the time as PIC, but have been logging it under the multiengine and total time columns. I do fly the plane-I hand flew from RIC to PBI this weekend. I'd like to avoid any raised eyebrows in future interviews, but would like to log the time as I am flying it and have almost 100 hours in this aircraft.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to avoid any raised eyebrows in future interviews, but would like to log the time as I am flying it and have almost 100 hours in this aircraft.

[/ QUOTE ]FWIW, my basic philosophy on logging is to log everything I am entitled to log.

Personal FAQ
==============================
I understand the concern with "raised" eyebrows, but that concern can be dealt with by presentation. You need to look at the issue from =both= an FAA and employability perspective. They're not mutually exclusive.

Let's take it out of logged PIC issues. Look at cross countries. For Part 135 qualification purposes, the cross country time may be basic point-to-point cross country: any flight involving a landing at another airport that you didn't bump into by accident, no matter what the distance. So you've got all these hours of flying to the airport with the great restaurant that's 8 NM away. Do you bother to log them?

Obviously, no employer is going to be impressed with this cross country time. But consider this scenario: You are a young CFI working at an FBO that does some night cargo operations. The FBO operator knows you, likes you, and is confident in your piloting skills. One of the regular pilots is going on vacation and you're offered the job of subbing. If all you count is the 50+ NM type of cross country, you're just shy of meeting the overall Part 135 cross country requirements, and you're really far off on the night cross country requirement. If you count point-to-point cross country, you meet them. The employer in this situation doesn't care that the cross country time was to the airport 5 NM away; she only cares that the local FSDO won't come banging on the door with a 135 violation.

Now, I'm not in the aviation industry, so you can take this with a grain of salt, but I can't imagine that aviation is so different than any other form of business. My take is that there's a big difference between having data and presenting it. You log what it is legitimate to log, but you present it in a way that is appropriate for the situation.

I'm not talking about falsifying or hiding the information. When going for the FedEx interview, there's a big difference between "I've got 1500 hours of cross country time" and "I've logged all of my cross countries to meet Part 135 requirements, but a lot of them were real short trips. I've broken out the ones I think are significant and they total...."

Ah! The advantages of electronic logbooks.
==============================
 

jonnyb

Well-Known Member
Oh Geezzz,


These threads drive me nuts. Ok, Midlifeflyer, let me get this straight; your NOT in the aviation industry but your offering advice on a very industry specific topic? Don't understand that at all. I'm not getting' on your case here man, I'm sure your a great guy, so don't take this personally. I just don't think you should be offering advice, at least not on this matter. Just my opinion.

Everyone thinks they have the right answer.
Well, let me tell y'all something, you can't get all the right "real world" answers from the FARs. I hate to say this, but JT is right! (JK man)
I would venture to say, if you don't have experience dealing directly with the feds and employers on this issue,,,,,DON'T offer advice. It's really confusing to the person trying to get a decent solid answer.

In part 91 ops. it doesn't mean a damn thing if the airplane is certified for single pilot ops. If the operation calls for a two pilot crew (passengers require it etc.) then you can log the time as SIC! PERIOD! Now, that doesn't mean every airline is going to accept this time. Who cares if they don't accept it, they're certainly not going to tell you it's "illegal" to log it. On the contrary, I don't know of one large or small 135 operator who won't accept this time. It's good to go. One more exception: If you're working in a part 135 op., you must have a 135 SIC Checkride (8410 letter) on the books to act as an SIC and log the time as such.

PsCraig, to answer your question: If you are flying in the right seat of the Moo 2 in a part 91 op., then you can log the time as SIC, as long as you can convince who asks that you were required per the operation (passengers required two pilots for the operation to exist). You also need 3 takeoffs and landings as sole manipulator and familiarity with the aircraft systems and operations. Like I said above, if it's a 135 op., you have to have an SIC checkride by a designated check airman or FAA inspector (8410 letter). I hope this helps.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Midlifeflyer, let me get this straight; your NOT in the aviation industry but your offering advice on a very industry specific topic? Don't understand that at all. I'm not getting' on your case here man, I'm sure your a great guy, so don't take this personally. I just don't think you should be offering advice, at least not on this matter.


[/ QUOTE ]So don't take it. That's why I threw in the disclaimer.

Besides, what makes you think that the aviation industry is so very different from any other? Business is business. Management personnel, especially, cross industry boundaries all the time. And business people all act pretty much the same, whether it's United Airlines or MacDonald's.

If you think that one industry is so "special" that there's nothing to learn from any of the others, you might be missing some pretty important stuff.

And then on top of it, with your "industry-specific" knowledge, you say,
[ QUOTE ]
In part 91 ops. it doesn't mean a damn thing if the airplane is certified for single pilot ops. If the operation calls for a two pilot crew (passengers require it etc.) then you can log the time as SIC! PERIOD!

[/ QUOTE ]something absolutely wrong.
 

jonnyb

Well-Known Member
First of all dude, I now realize you are a "know it all", so there is no getting through to you. No one will ever be able to tell you your wrong, I see that now. If you, in your ??educated?? and experienced based opinion think I'm wrong about the above, that's fine. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. How man inspectors have you spoken to about this issue? How many jobs have received or not received due to part 91 SIC logged? That's what I thought.....

And one more thing,,,,,I also have a real estate development company, so don't talk to me about other business. Pleeeease.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
How man inspectors have you spoken to about this issue? How many jobs have received or not received due to part 91 SIC logged? That's what I thought.....


[/ QUOTE ]Sorry. I found

==============================
Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
==============================

to be pretty clear. I didn't think "the passengers want" qualified as a change to a type certificate or "regulations under which the flight is being conducted." Obviously, we speak different languages.
 

jonnyb

Well-Known Member
Exactly right. You don't think I know 61.51(f)? Give me a break. The answer is in your own post!
You're killing me man.
".......or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted." Do you think this is some cut and dry statement? Do you even know how these regulations work? The FARs is a large book full of grey pages where interpretation is required for large sums of it.

Like I said, you have no experience and you don't know what you're talking about. You don't just go around quoting the FARs to answer peoples questions. Since you so desire to speak of other industries,,,,you ever heard of "Case Law". Yeah, kinda like that. N'uff said by me.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
you ever heard of "Case Law".

[/ QUOTE ] Yes. I've heard of it. Got one for me to read that says what you say? Didn't think so.
 

jonnyb

Well-Known Member
I knew you wouldn't be capable of figuring it out.
Arguing with ignorant people is boring. So I'm done. This forum is to help those who need it, not for us to battle. I'm out......
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I knew you wouldn't be capable of figuring it out.
Arguing with ignorant people is boring. So I'm done.

[/ QUOTE ]We're different there too. I find arguing with ignorant people fun. You've been very enjoyable.
 
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