Boring sorta buys Embraer

[milleR]

I think having SA so low that someone is hand flying when they should be helping look for traffic in a busy terminal environment just because they can means they're trying to prove something.

If a pilots hand flying has them looking inside more than outside then you’ve identified the problem.

 

[z987k]

If a pilots hand flying has them looking inside more than outside then you’ve identified the problem.

Right? If you can't fly, twist the knob, punch the keys and work the radio yourself, you really shouldn't be up there. Having the other person do half that should in no way load you or them up to the point mistakes are being made.

 

[jtrain609]

So, when the AP is deferred you’re going to refuse the aircraft? Or take it, but because you haven’t hand flown in over a year, be an even worse pilot?

There’s a reason legacies are putting an emphasis on hand flying. LOSA and ASAP reports point to a fundamental failure of pilots to be able to hand fly, due to an over reliance on automation.

Private pilots flying solo are able to function and operate in a safe manner without an AP. You should to. If the person who is hand flying is incapable of looking out the window for traffic, or have any SA as to the state of the aircraft, then they need to be 709’d.

If a pilots hand flying has them looking inside more than outside then you’ve identified the problem.

Right? If you can't fly, twist the knob, punch the keys and work the radio yourself, you really shouldn't be up there. Having the other person do half that should in no way load you or them up to the point mistakes are being made.

I figured that would get the attention of the badass patrol.

There is a time and a place to hand fly. There is a time and a place to not. We engage in risk reduction, and that means using the tools you have available to help you manage threats.

That DOES mean hand flying, but not every leg or at every airport because you can. It means making rational decisions about when to work on your hand flying skills.

Because yes, one day you will have to take an airplane without an autopilot, and you want those skills sharp. But we're fools to think that not having an AP isn't a threat, and that it can somehow be fully countered by manning up and being awesome.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I figured that would get the attention of the badass patrol.

There is a time and a place to hand fly. There is a time and a place to not. We engage in risk reduction, and that means using the tools you have available to help you manage threats.

That DOES mean hand flying, but not every leg or at every airport because you can. It means making rational decisions about when to work on your hand flying skills.

Because yes, one day you will have to take an airplane without an autopilot, and you want those skills sharp. But we're fools to think that not having an AP isn't a threat, and that it can somehow be fully countered by manning up and being awesome.

Do you ever hand fly? If so, when?

 

[Jordan93]

There is a time and a place to hand fly.

This. Can I hand fly the Whitestone climb out of LGA without the FD? Yes. Am I unnecessarily overloading the FO even though I have a perfectly good AP? Yes. I’ll usually hand fly departing out of the sleepy outstations where we only get one heading, direct to a fix, and contacting Center at 8000ft.

 

[jtrain609]

Do you ever hand fly? If so, when?

It depends, but if it'll give someone on the internet a stroke, I'll say I don't hand fly unless I'm safely in the sim.

But Jordan pretty much just nailed it.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

It depends, but if it'll give someone on the internet a stroke, I'll say I don't hand fly unless I'm safely in the sim.

But Jordan pretty much just nailed it.

I almost just stroked out.

So, what do you do as an FO, now when the Captain wants to hand fly out of say JFK or LAX? What did you do at Compass when your FO wanted to hand fly out of LAX or some other busy Class B airport?

 

[jtrain609]

I almost just stroked out.

So, what do you do as an FO, now when the Captain wants to hand fly out of say JFK or LAX? What did you do at Compass when your FO wanted to hand fly out of LAX or some other busy Class B airport?

JFK is much easier to deal with than LAX or LGA, so guys flying the plane usually isn't a big deal.

I haven't had a captain overload me here, but most brief that if they do to just speak up.

At Compass it was a different story because I was teaching most the time at the end, and being comfortable with both the autopilot and hand flying was important. I'd say most guys needed work on managing automation on departure, not hand flying, where the opposite was true on approach.

 

[Nark]

@jtrain609 : let me ask, have you flown a FD off departure in the bus yet?

There is a time and a place, no doubt. I usually find one or two each pairing.

 

[Cptnchia]

I just hope he’s a better pilot than a lawyer.

:stir:

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You think hand flying is trying to prove something?

Usually, yes.

So, when the AP is deferred you’re going to refuse the aircraft?

I did once or twice. AirTran would never have even considered asking us to fly without an AP, but Pinnacle did. I refused if the flights were going to be too long, weather was too bad, etc.

 

[4v14t0r]

This. Can I hand fly the Whitestone climb out of LGA without the FD? Yes. Am I unnecessarily overloading the FO even though I have a perfectly good AP? Yes. I’ll usually hand fly departing out of the sleepy outstations where we only get one heading, direct to a fix, and contacting Center at 8000ft.

I agree that unnecessarily overloading your PM is a bad idea, but the Whitestone climb is a poor example.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Autothrust Blue]

That I can understand, but when you get to the legacy level, if a guy can’t talk on the radio, turn the knobs as required, and run a checklist, without actually having to manipulate the controls, then how in the hell did they get to that level?

Fake it until you make it.

There’s a reason legacies are putting an emphasis on hand flying. LOSA and ASAP reports point to a fundamental failure of pilots to be able to hand fly, due to an over reliance on automation.

Er, well, it's because y'all can't do it. However...Don't feel too bad, regional low-lifes largely can't either.

There is an underlying assumption that basic mechanical flying skill is something that is overlearned at "this level." It is an assumption people should probably break.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I did once or twice. AirTran would never have even considered asking us to fly without an AP, but Pinnacle did. I refused if the flights were going to be too long, weather was too bad, etc.

Refusal of the airplane for this is situational. If we're going to Brainerd on a clear day, whatever. Ditto for down Chicago way on a clear day or something close by with not a lot of weather.

The normal key to keeping stuff working in that situation is making sure people have their roles and work well-defined and understood, and briefing and setting as much as is practical before getting into dynamic phases. It's perfectly possible to do it safely, but it is a pain, and it is not something that (I think) the industry adequately trains for because of the assumption above. (SPOT LOFT this year is all about raw data, which is good, but not necessarily the best thing we can do with that time, IMO.)

Longer legs, bad weather, different story.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I figured that would get the attention of the badass patrol.

There is a time and a place to hand fly. There is a time and a place to not. We engage in risk reduction, and that means using the tools you have available to help you manage threats.

That DOES mean hand flying, but not every leg or at every airport because you can. It means making rational decisions about when to work on your hand flying skills.

Because yes, one day you will have to take an airplane without an autopilot, and you want those skills sharp. But we're fools to think that not having an AP isn't a threat, and that it can somehow be fully countered by manning up and being awesome.

You know what's better than being the best hand-pilot single-seat supersonic jet jock? (Or someone who can Konami code the crap out of the GP/FCP/FGCP/MCP/whatever the airplane of the now calls it?)

Selecting the APPROPRIATE level of automation for the task at hand.

 

[trafficinsight]

I'm all about lowest workload, whatever level of automation that might be

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[jtrain609]

I'm all about lowest workload, whatever level of automation that might be

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

"Flaps 2, flight control check, autopilot on."

 

[Autothrust Blue]

"Flaps 2, flight control check, autopilot on."

I bet the ten second wait is agonizing.

 

[trafficinsight]

"Flaps 2, flight control check, autopilot on."

I'm not sure taxiing through the autopilot panel could be considered "low workload."

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[z987k]

This. Can I hand fly the Whitestone climb out of LGA without the FD? Yes. Am I unnecessarily overloading the FO even though I have a perfectly good AP? Yes. I’ll usually hand fly departing out of the sleepy outstations where we only get one heading, direct to a fix, and contacting Center at 8000ft.

Then your FO sucks. Simple as that. They might be real new and still hanging on to the tail. Everyone is there at some point. But that shouldn't be the norm.
I do hand fly every opportunity I get. Last year I think that added up to less than 1 total hour. There's so little to do as PF, I rather enjoy being PM with someone who flies the airplane.