Boeing vs Airbus and Speed Brakes

During my brief time on the 320 one of the things I had to get used to was slowing down and getting down. With the speedbrakes out Vls would shoot way up to the point of having to get Flaps 1 out, often well above Green Dot so that I could even select the speed I needed.

On the bus, you can always select the speed you want, regardless of configuration. Fifi will protect you at Vls or Vmax. If you're on downwind at 250kt and clean, you can always select 140kt.

Having to wait for the flaps to move is a Boeing thing.
 
Um...that's the 737. I was always told Idle Descent at 250 knots you'll get 1700 feet per minute. Add speed brakes and you get 1700 feet per minute and vibration.
I really love using idle, flaps 2 + boards…then we all laugh at AS, and do SJI pilot stuff.
 
You prob also use F10, you dangerous safety violator! Maybe even pop F40 for a second then back to 30......
In LAX, coming in from the east…YEP!

No 40–>30. Need to do more 40’s, 15 and 30 are where I’ve found some pretty good landings
 
In LAX, coming in from the east…YEP!

No 40–>30. Need to do more 40’s, 15 and 30 are where I’ve found some pretty good landings

Yeah, I haven't done a lot of 40's either. I think I may have had an actual good landing in a 9ER, but I actually have no idea how to tell what variant I am flying without actually looking up the tail. So it was prob an 800. It is strange, but any flap setting, and GW, I always grease the MAX. I don't understand it. I always destroy everyone present in a 9ER, regardless of technique. Like multiple little old ladies who will never walk again.
 
“Slow down to go down” (if you can).

I don’t fly ‘em but planning to go back to Flaps 30 from already selecting Flaps 40 (or back to CONF 3 from CONF 4 if you prefer) just seems … weird?

Like sunshine during a thunderstorm kind of weird. Not necessarily DOOOM, but like you might be lawyering-around some stabilized approach criteria, or that the automation or a checklist will become confused.

Asking across different airlines: does your shop have a policy about planning to reverse flaps?
 
Use flaps 40 all the time at BUR, SNA, MDW, and SAN. It was more of a pain when the max additive was +20, now at +15 it give more margin on gusty days, especially in the 700. Speaking of that thing flaps 10 works great since it gives you full extended on the slats.

The flaps 40 back to 30 trick works well also, for us we just have to be in landing configuration by 1000’ AFE.

I do most of the flap 15 landings in Denver in the summer when it’s really hot and you get the approach climb limit bleeds off landing required for flaps 30/40 message. Flaps 15 fixes that.

For me I liked landing the 300 the best, it hand flew nice. Too bad it was like a flying hot port-a-potty around.
 
VLS is more akin to an AOA indicator in how it works. It will change as you load the wing, add or subtract spoilers, etc. you probably just never saw the true effect of the speed brake. It’s also way more conservative than a low speed cue.

The low speed awareness also changed based on spoiler usage, load, etc. As for how conservative it is vs the ‘bus, that I can’t tell you.
 
Use flaps 40 all the time at BUR, SNA, MDW, and SAN. It was more of a pain when the max additive was +20, now at +15 it give more margin on gusty days, especially in the 700. Speaking of that thing flaps 10 works great since it gives you full extended on the slats.

The flaps 40 back to 30 trick works well also, for us we just have to be in landing configuration by 1000’ AFE.

I do most of the flap 15 landings in Denver in the summer when it’s really hot and you get the approach climb limit bleeds off landing required for flaps 30/40 message. Flaps 15 fixes that.

For me I liked landing the 300 the best, it hand flew nice. Too bad it was like a flying hot port-a-potty around.

That depends on whether it's a SFP or non-SFP. With SFP, it goes full extend beyond flaps 25.


Not sure I'd be a fan of going to flaps 40 and then back to 30 to get yourself on profile. IMO if it was that bad you needed that extra crutch, you should have probably managed energy* sooner.




* @///AMG favorite phrase :)
 
That depends on whether it's a SFP or non-SFP. With SFP, it goes full extend beyond flaps 25.
Never heard of SFP, full slats at 10 on the 700, 25 on the 800/MAX8.

Not sure I'd be a fan of going to flaps 40 and then back to 30 to get yourself on profile. IMO if it was that bad you needed that extra crutch, you should have probably managed energy* sooner.
You don’t have to be a fan of it. It still works good, lasts long time. Just another tool in the box to make things work in a dynamic environment.
 
Never heard of SFP, full slats at 10 on the 700, 25 on the 800/MAX8.


You don’t have to be a fan of it. It still works good, lasts long time. Just another tool in the box to make things work in a dynamic environment.

SFP = Short Field Performance



I'd think I'd encourage you to have configured sooner instead of NEEDING to go to 40 and then reverting back to 30. Had you thrown the gear out 30 seconds sooner, you probably wouldn't have needed to do this POOR technique. (And lets be honest, that's what it is - a poor technique).

I have never had anyone do this. The only time I have gone from 40 to 30 is because of a tower updated wind was more gusty/sporty and so we bought agreed 30 would be a better margin. I've never been in position to go flaps 40 for more drag to get back on profile, and then back to 30 for the landing itself. Boo.
 
SFP = Short Field Performance



I'd think I'd encourage you to have configured sooner instead of NEEDING to go to 40 and then reverting back to 30. Had you thrown the gear out 30 seconds sooner, you probably wouldn't have needed to do this POOR technique. (And lets be honest, that's what it is - a poor technique).

I have never had anyone do this. The only time I have gone from 40 to 30 is because of a tower updated wind was more gusty/sporty and so we bought agreed 30 would be a better margin. I've never been in position to go flaps 40 for more drag to get back on profile, and then back to 30 for the landing itself. Boo.
So you’ve never been left up high before? May we all be as lucky.

Just a hypothetical since I don’t actually remember a specific time I’ve done this. Say you’re on the localizer from a ways out and start configuring at 3000 AFE, then due to crossing traffic below your told to level at 2500, so you slow and get the gear and flaps 15, continue to slow to target and get flaps 30 then continue down. Now you’re high but not unmanageable since you’re at target, just drop 40 to get back on G/S and then flaps 30 before landing checklist, configured and stable at 1000 AFE and if not just go around.

I’d say it’s more a poor technique not to use all the tools available to safely get things done.
 
So you’ve never been left up high before? May we all be as lucky.

Just a hypothetical since I don’t actually remember a specific time I’ve done this. Say you’re on the localizer from a ways out and start configuring at 3000 AFE, then due to crossing traffic below your told to level at 2500, so you slow and get the gear and flaps 15, continue to slow to target and get flaps 30 then continue down. Now you’re high but not unmanageable since you’re at target, just drop 40 to get back on G/S and then flaps 30 before landing checklist, configured and stable at 1000 AFE and if not just go around.

I’d say it’s more a poor technique not to use all the tools available to safely get things done.

I've been left high. I've managed to get down with gear and flaps 30 just fine.

And we have new stable criteria, we can continue lower than 1000. 1000 is the configuration target, 500 is the stable target, 300 is the stable limit. So there's even more room IF you really needed it. Boo for going 40 to 30 to fix an energy issue.
 
Sounds like you just like creating your own “techcedure”. I used to fly with guys like that when I flew 135 charter.

I have never seen anyone do it.


Ask yourself , when does flaps 40 go to 30 on its own? Blowback. You got too fast. On approach, it’s not normal to go full flaps and then back one notch. Again, just from what I’ve seen. I’d still say you should have configured sooner to avoid that situation in the first place.

You not knowing what SFP is for a 737, no offense, raises my BS (red) flag.
 
I have never seen anyone do it.


Ask yourself , when does flaps 40 go to 30 on its own? Blowback. You got too fast. On approach, it’s not normal to go full flaps and then back one notch. Again, just from what I’ve seen. I’d still say you should have configured sooner to avoid that situation in the first place.

You not knowing what SFP is for a 737, no offense, raises my BS (red) flag.
Ask yourself, the flaps will also blowback up at other settings so what difference does it make? If your high and at flaps 30 and over speed them they will come back up as well. So that’s a red herring answer.

Again this is just your “techcedure” to deny an arrow from your quiver.

As for SFP, I looked it up and 800s I fly have it so to me it’s just normal.
 
“Using flaps as speed brakes is not authorized.”


To me, sounds like exactly what you are doing by going to 40 to increase your rate of descent without increasing airspeed, and then back to 30.
Not using them as speed brakes if your already on speed and just using them to increase descent rate.
 
Flight Handbook 3.11 page 4:


“Using flaps as speed brakes is not authorized.”


To me, sounds like exactly what you are doing by going to 40 to increase your rate of descent without increasing airspeed, and then back to 30.
 
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