"Bob The Salesman" At Pan Am's Phoenix Campus

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

About the part-141 thing. Looking back, who really cares. Part-141 is a great a great marketing tool, but having been a CFI I think it's overrated.

While a CFI, we had a choice between taking a student thru part-61 and part-141 and after I learned what I'd have to do to satisfy part-141 requirements in terms of paperwork, bureaucracy and other 'clerical' duties, I normally just took them thru part-61.

Is part 141 bad? Nope. Is it good? Sure. But if you're not looking to use VA benefits for flight training, I wouldn't worry that much about part-61 and part-141 status.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

As far as Pan Am losing their 141 status, it is posted right above my post by Chunk, yet I'm accused of spreading rumors. No I did not call up the school or thoroughly research their current 141 status before my post, so if you want to fault me for that than so be it. I can speak from my experience at Pan Am though and I will say this: Before my 10:30 PM frasca mission, one of the stagecheck instructors told me that everyone may be soon switched to part 61 training because the school was under investigation since such a low percentage of students were passing their checkrides on the first attempt. I left the school while that investigation was pending, so I don't know what happened after that-- if they lost 141 status, never lost 141 status, or lost 141 status and had it reinstated. However, many have posted that they have indeed lost 141 status, and I see no reason why so many would lie. So if someone is telling you otherwise, then, as some like to say on here, perhaps that says something about their character!

Now in the future, let's grow up children and leave personal insults out of this.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Doug, I'd have to disagree with you on that one. True, 141 or 61, either training won't matter in the long run. However, my point was that if a school loses the 141 status because students keep failing checkrides, doesn't that say something about the training and the school itself? Maybe not, but I just thought it would. Who knows, maybe I am wrong; it has happened before.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Is it because they're busting checkrides or busting stage checks?

We had self-examining authority at ERAU and it was a double-edged sword. Some of the pilot examiners were so afraid of looking too lenient on students, that a lot of checkrides were failed over stupid stuff.

I failed a stage check because I took 38 minutes ("...an inordinate amount of time...") planning a XC flight from PRC to ABQ in a certain examiner's opinion.

I dunno, that's just my own personal opinion and I may be wrong.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

I'd like to see what the PTS says about a 'time limit' for planning....

Chunk

PS--Are there no Pan-o Am-o (European Vacation, if you are wondering) VA folks out there????
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

I think overall, PanAm does have a very low pass rate for checkrides. Alot of people get pink slips around here, and it doesnt seem to bother anyone.... its like, "Oh well, we'll just work on that and you'll get it right next time." Not long after I first came here in April, I also heard about PanAm being under investigation by the FSDO because of the low pass rate, but nothing more since then. Tuesday I heard one of the DE's say that he wasnt impressed by the quality of training here, and I agree with him.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

While I was at Pan Am, I was going to use my VA benefits. It was true, at the time, you had to go 141 to collect VA benefits and I was told that there was an increased cost for the 141 program. I don't know the reason for the increased cost but thats what they told me right from the start. When I was at Pan Am there were rumors that they were losing their 141 status and there was to be an investigation, but it was still a 141 school when I left. I am glad I didn't waste my valuable VA benefits at Pan Am.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Pan Am was under investigation while I was there because a low percentage of students were failing the checkrides with DPE's for their instrument, commercial ratings, etc. and I know that was directly related to the way students were being treated at the school. Whether Pan Am is still under investigation, lost its status, or got the problem resolved, I don't have any idea what the situation is now.
Self-examining authority, is that like in house examiners? I've even seen problems at different schools with in house examiners because the examiners feel pressured to pass and fail a certain percentage of students to keep their jobs. Everything is so complicated at these schools sometimes. Too bad airplanes are expensive; money- the root of all evil.
confused.gif
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

DPE's are sometimes very political. When I failed my multi-engine instrument checkride, the DPE took a lot of pride in (and I quote) "...showing 'Riddle they ain't nothin' special..." by my failure. I can't remember the reason, but my training course wasn't covered, at the time, by ERAU's self-examining authority.

Largely, part-61 vs part-141, DPE vs self-examining authority, in retrospect, doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans because it still boils down to student versus checkride pilot.

Lots of agendas, politics and egos get intermixed in aviation at times.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

FLDiver,

Well! That is awfully interesting. That cuts it for me. PAN AM management is sleazy! Charging a VA guy more because they know he's going to get money back? Lemme do some research, but I believe that is illegal. Our little ole gubbamint gets testy when you screw with veterans....and rightly so.

Here's a message to Pan-o Am-o's "management team" who are no doubt reading this....

If it's true that you are charging VA students more simply because you know they're 'good for it' then you are no better than the scum that hangs outside of bases, looking to sell cars to 18 year old sailors at 23%. Why don't you just put a big sign up out front saying "We finance E-1 and up!" just like they do.

Message to all veterans and those still in considering a school, "STAY AWAY! Don't let these dudes do this to you."


UGH! This really p*sses me off. Unethical, immoral, and possible illegal, of course, I'm no lawyer (thank goodness).

Out,

chunk
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

And when I toured, they told me that "everybody goes part 61...it is a much better program and would work out better for you. The only reason to go 141 is to use VA benefits, but other than that there is no real advantage".....she neglected to include the part about how it would take me more hours and they would make a lot more money off of it. They make it sound like the 141 isn't even an option to new students.

Now if that's not sleazy.....
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Pan Am charges one price whether you're 61 or 141. The price difference comes because of the different syllabus. The 61 syllabus is designed to get you through the program meeting the 61 minimums and it can be shortened, lengthened, or changed as needed to fit the needs of the student. The 141 syllabus is controlled by the FAA, and in some cases, results in a longer program and more money, and CANNOT BE CHANGED IN ANY WAY without prior approval. For example, the 141 CPL SE syllabus is around 55 missions, the 61 syllabus is around 15. There is no price gouging. The plane and instructors cost the same no matter what program you're in.

And the rumor about excessive failures and DPEs saying PanAm students are horrible?? The DPEs that I've used at PanAm have commented that they are impressed with the knowledge and skills of PanAm students
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Hey Chunk, aren't you a FSI student? Ask 'em what's up with no jetcareers link on their website.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

The 61 route is cheaper. They restructured the 61 program last year. The original was basically a flexible 141 program. They changed the order of the program (e.g. put the route program before CPL so that the time counts toward the CPL minimums) and added time to the programs that students were consistently needing more time with. For the same price as the old program, you now get more multi time and a more realistic time-frame, so there is more chance of finishing the program on budget.

I did my IR rating 141 and switched to 61 for my CPL. I'm very glad I made the change.

Compare the 2 programs and see what's best for you. It's your choice to go 61 or 141.
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

I think the site is still beta....

Do you need me to get an email address for you? I try to stay somewhat anonymous, even though I'm not sure how successful I am at that.

They should...the individuals who decided on FSI based on this website that I know of personally is in the double digits!

Chunk
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Sure, that'd be cool. I figure if they're going to put up some cheesy sites on the aviation links page, might as well have my cheesy site there as well!
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Doug,

Fellow FSI Student here as well. It is there. Go to www.flightsafetyacademy.com, click on "Career Center" at the bottom, then "Getting Started" on the left hand menu, then scroll through the 4 page description. It is listed there as a site with "A wealth of information...regarding the various steps to becoming a professional pilot."

Hope this helps
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Ever talk to Pan Am about getting a link put on their website?
 
Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Nope. Considering I got them a lot of business last year with my review, you'd figure they'd have at least put a link up, I guess!
 
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