"Bob The Salesman" At Pan Am's Phoenix Campus

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Hey mavmb1,
let me ask you a question. Why dont you slam students at Flightsafety, Comair, ATA, Tab Express, Embry Riddle, Westwind, and every other student on the planet that has a student loan, for being in debt?
Everyone who goes to college, or trains at a vocational school, or flight school, must pay for their education, and some of it is expensive, and most of them dont have rich daddies who pay for it all. So why dont you slam all of them too? I know a few doctors who are in debt and will be for a long time to come. But I dont see you slamming doctors, lawyers, social workers, and struggling out of work rocket scientists. Why not? They all have to pay back student loans.
For some reason you think all of us poor saps at pan Am have been scammed into giving away our money, and are now the only people on the planet that are in debt. So why are you only slamming Pan Amer's? I really want to understand why you are so biased. Maybe it's not that complicated after all. Maybe you have too much time on your hands, and you think you are funny.

Well, back to studying for my check ride...

The Turk.

 

[Guest]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Turk,
I don't think it is so much about being in debt, we all knew that going into this thing. I thnk it is more about feeling that we were decieved about how much it was going to cost and the lack of concern by the admin for the students that are struggling.
Keep in mind that there is no screening process coming in here. There is no way of knowing whether you are cut out for it or not. If you are not, you have already committed to moving down, quiting your job and are bound by a contract. I can easily see why so many are bitter about it.
I am personally used to a educational system that is structured for the success of most students. I studied really hard for my BS. Yes there were drop outs but only like 10% or so. And as far as knowing if I could make it, I took the entrance exams. If they didn't think that I would be successful, they wouldn't accept me.
You can not name one person that made it through this program as written. Sure people make it but not even one as written or advertised. So where did they get these figures, out of their a--es?

 

[Ysifly]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Hey Panampilot did you go to Sierra? If so I have one thing to say your a good instructor. Most of the instructors that teach there are good for the most part. However they do not seem to happy anymore. Why is that? Pan Am has two things going for it great equipment and good instructing staff the problem rest with the ASSistant chiefs and chief as well as admin. The school has great potential if they were honest and everyone did not try to throw each other under the bus. I wanted to go to a flight school not Gray Hound. When a question is asked no one can do anything unless it benefits them. Another thing its good to see that Pan Am has treated atleast someone right, and you stand by them even if I dont agree. Good Luck may you be one of the few that does not have there promise broken. Oh ya I was told that the pass rate on stage checks for the FIRST take is 5% any comments. That is right out of a stage check instructors mouth.

 

[chunk75]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

I heard (NOT FLAMING OR FLAMEBAITING) that's why PanAm lost 141. Low pass rate.

Chunk

 

[Flymach2]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Hi...

Pan Am lost their 141? Someone should let them know.
A low pass rate on initial Stage Checks won't be cause for removal of 141 status. Repetitive failures of initial FAA checkrides, on the other hand, would be a cause for re-evaluation of the schools' training procedures and possible denial of 141 certification. Stage Checks are designed to prevent the FAA from handing out salmon colored invitations to the next checkride.

Regards

 

[dakovich]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

i know commercial single pass rate is over 80% for first time tries. thats all i know for fact.

question for Chunk: does anyone at FSI ever get pink slipped?? heard a dirty rumor about some set up with DE's that in some strange way allows for no pink slippage...failures, but no pink slip.

 

[Snow]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

I heard that the reason they stopped the part 146 was because the 146 FAA checkride people are harder to come by and it was causing delays or somthing. I think they still teach the 146 method even thought it may not be offical anymore

 

[dakovich]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Panam still teaches ground school 141...they also teach all the VA (veterans) under 141 sylabus. 141 uses in house check airmen (as i understand), and the number of check airmen Panam had versus the ammount of students needing check rides was way out of proportion. some of the disgruntled former students have said it took weeks to get check rides under the old 141 program, and i've also heard the same from some old time students that teach here now. now they teach VA 141, and the GA 61. like i said earlier though, all the ground schools are still 141.

 

[chunk75]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Hmmm...considering FSI has self-examining authority thereby negating the need for DPE's, I guess you heard wrong.

My info came from a Pan Am instructor...where did yours come from?

Nobody gives up 141....that's idiotic....

Chunk

 

[dakovich]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

i wasn't trying to be an ass Chunk, i just wasn't sure if everyone at FSI was 141 or 61. i was under the impression you guys still have DPE's come up and do some check rides for students...heard that straight from 2 DE's that i know. do you guys have DPE's or is it exclusivly self exam?

 

[chunk75]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

There are DE's for 61 students which are the exception to the rule. The only 61 guys are folks who started their pvt elsewhere or some dudes doing single engine add on...most go 141 for single engine add....95% off all checkrides are 141 with self-examinging authority.

Chunk

 

[d_gelling]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Think about how much extra money PanAm makes over the course of training by making somebody do things 61.....At $150-$250 per hour for an airplane (not even figuring instructors)....that's $9000 - $15000 more that they can get PER STUDENT over the course of time to get your commercial ticket. Add to that instructor fees, brief time, etc.....that is a TON of money.

Dakovich....I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, but when I asked PanAM about all of this when I toured their excuse was that it helped the people who already came in with a significant number of hours since they didn't have to go through the entire 141 syllabus. Makes sense for them.....but for people like you, myself, and a very large number of people out there who start at one of these big schools pre-private.....they make out on the deal a lot better. When I asked about that I was told that "Very few people actually get their ratings in the 190 hours that a 141 school allots and it usually takes around the 250 hours anyway so it all works out in the end to be about the same".......ehem...excuse me? Many people here at FSI and other places finish either at or near the allotted time frame (assuming you work hard and stay on track).

It just didn't make a lot of sense to me. To the guy who already has 50-100 hours, sure it makes good sense, but not my situation.

 

[dakovich]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

i understand what you're saying, believe me i do.

 

[Wolverine]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

PanAm has and uses its approved 141 syllabi. Every student has a choice of whether he/she wants go through each rating as 61 or 141. Almost all students choose the 61 route, mainly because of its flexibility. The VA students have to go the 141 route or the govt won't pay for them.

The 141 students use the same independent DEs as the 61 students. But, only some stage check pilots are able to do 141 stage checks. We had a shortage once, but I think the stage check wait time is now the same as for 61.

I'm not sure where you're getting the $150-250 per hour for an aircraft. The Archer is $94, Arrow is $104 and Seminole is $181. And, sim time can account for part of the 250 required under 61. I finished my CPL with 230 flight hours. I flew about 40 hrs of x-country to meet the x-c requirements, without that I would have finished with the 190 required under 141. I wouldn't consider the 40 hrs of x-c a waste, since x-c is precious when it comes to getting a job, ATP, and 135 certification. And, those 40 hrs were solo hours - no added cost for an instructor.

I've heard that one person got the ACE refund. The person went through ACE and didn't have a job after 6 months. The person found a job without help from PanAm and asked for the refund and got it. Whether the airlines are hiring or not, PanAm still guarantees a job. That may mean that many people get to go through ACE for free, but it seems to me that they are standing behind their contract.

 

[Mavmb]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Well Turkey Bird, maybe I'm not on the other flight academy threads, because I didn't go to those schools. Why would I comment on places I've never been too? As far as Pan Am, I went to that place, and what goes on there is white collar crime. Furthermore, I believe that theives should go to jail and that young aspring pilots should not have their money stolen from them. To this day, NEVER EVER, have I met any fellow pilot from Pan Am that does not feel like they were cheated out of their money. I'm sorry, they are still pulling the wool over your eyes. My advice is watch your account every week, fight to keep an instructor for longer than a week, don't tolerate any sims at 3 AM, when you have groundschool at 8:00 am the next day, and if you fail a stagecheck, question it. Also, take as much of YOUR money out of THEIR account as possible. Take it out of their pockets and put it in your checking account. It is YOUR money. You deserve to make interest off of it; they don't.

And by the way, the fact that a school loses it's 141 status should tell you something right there. The only way to lose 141 status is to have an extremely low percentage of pass rates on checkrides. Tells you something about the quality training at this school doesn't it?

 

[Wolverine]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Once again, PAN AM HAS NOT LOST ITS 141 STATUS!!!

Where is this rumor coming from and why do you guys keep spreading it???

 

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

There you go again mavmb1. I dont know who started this whole rumor about Pan Am losing 141, but they didn't, and still train under 141 and 61. The fact that you keep stating this should say something about your character, shouldn't it?

As for my experience at Pan Am so far:

I have had the same instructor through my entire PPL course.

I check my account every time I fly, as I get a printout of the cost of the flight, the cost of the instructor, and the funds in my account. I keep all printouts from each flight, and I make sure all the numbers add up. And they always do.

I have not failed any stagechecks, granted I have only had 2 so far, but each has been conducted fairly, and they are not impossible. And I do not hear about people failing them just so Pan Am can make more money.

I have not had any flight sim lessons yet, so we will see how that goes in a couple of weeks when I start instrument training.

Wow I have been a little feisty lately. Must be the stress of all these stagechecks.

The Turk.

 

[chunk75]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

I just recently talked to a potential VA student at PanAm...he says when he talked to Pan Am marketing they told him there were different prices for VA students....Can anyone (VA) shed some light on this as this is a violation of federal law!

Chunk

 

[Ysifly]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

Pan Am has NOT lost its 141. If you look at the regs for 61 and 141 they are written differently. 141 is more stringent (sp?) than 61 so there for the cost "estimate" and procedures is higher. I was told that 61 was less expensive and a quicker program that is true 61 is faster than 141. They still teach 141 groundschool and operate a 141 school under 61 regs for suposed ease to the student. VA will only pay for 141 training some goverment misc.

 

[Ysifly]

Re: \"Bob The Salesman\" At Pan Am\'s Phoenix Campus

I think were he is getting the rental rate of 150- 250 is for dual time not solo time. How often do you pay for solo time. The majority of your time will be dual so them telling you 91 an hour is a little misleading.