Bill to Privatize US ATC...

RORO said:
Somebody else told me NavCanada's user fees are crazy. I dont know how true that is as I have never directly had to deal with them as an authority. Perhaps someone else here has experience with them and can verify.
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I know our dispatch software considers the cost of Nav Canada user fees when optimizing a route.

Nav Canada is also an independent, not for profit entity. In the current and especially incoming government climate, we would much more likely end up with it farmed out to a for profit corporation and we all know those are famous for sparing no expense to make sure their operations are properly staffed, and using up to date and robust technology.
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
Yes, and technology would have made them obsolete either way.
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Maybe, but at the time they were privatized they still served a useful function and Lockheed took them from doing that well to being absolutely • useless in a matter of months.
CoffeeIcePapers said:
I don’t think those are the problems, but I’d be interested in presenting some facts. From what I have seen, the main issues are understaffing, bloat, and old technology.
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I dunno, working for an airline it sure seems like we (and all our competitors) have those three problems in abundance. I’m eternally skeptical of privatization fixing any of them.
 
Roger Roger said:
I know our dispatch software considers the cost of Nav Canada user fees when optimizing a route.

Nav Canada is also an independent, not for profit entity. In the current and especially incoming government climate, we would much more likely end up with it farmed out to a for profit corporation and we all know those are famous for sparing no expense to make sure their operations are properly staffed, and using up to date and robust technology.
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give it to Elon he’ll figure it out in a week
 
  • Haha
Reactions: JEP
Roger Roger said:
I know our dispatch software considers the cost of Nav Canada user fees when optimizing a route.

Nav Canada is also an independent, not for profit entity. In the current and especially incoming government climate, we would much more likely end up with it farmed out to a for profit corporation and we all know those are famous for sparing no expense to make sure their operations are properly staffed, and using up to date and robust technology.
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Agree, I can see no universe where the next Congress would create a non profit run ATC system. Because it wouldn't be much different than now, except Congress would have less control of it.

The for profit system they would likely favor would have some challenges - to make a profit, it would need to have fewer controllers, lower pay, and/or more revenue. I don't think that any sane observer sees any efficiencies to be found by increasing productivity.
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
Nextgen was a complete disaster.
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I’d like you to elaborate on this as well. The elements of it I’m familiar with, as well as what I’ve skimmed from wiki, seem like they work fine and were a needed upgrade. Once again the biggest issues seem to be grift by for-profit contractors, and reluctance by NAS users to upgrade and participate.
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
Nextgen was a complete disaster.
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As someone who has been using this stuff for 25 years, it is much better now. I can file a flight plan on my phone, I get the expected route back within a minute. Clearance delivery usually has it before I can call them. RNAV approaches are ubiquitous, and have much better minimums that the VOR/NDB procedures they've largely replaced. ADSB weather and traffic is also fantastic. As great as the fancy avionics we have now are, they wouldn't be nearly as useful without the weather data and traffic infrastructure that's in place.
 
RORO said:
Somebody else told me NavCanada's user fees are crazy. I dont know how true that is as I have never directly had to deal with them as an authority. Perhaps someone else here has experience with them and can verify.
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There’s a reason that pilots and trainees from all over the world come to the States for flight training. The fee structure would absolutely crush General Aviation, manufacturing (already struggling) and associated industries.

For example, some airports in central Florida are fighting the good fight against user fees being collected by automated ADS-B tracking.

www.aopa.org

AOPA seeks to limit aircraft tracking for airport fees

AOPA urged the FAA to block third-party use of ADS-B data that airports may soon (or already) use to monitor traffic and assess landing fees.
www.aopa.org
 
CFI A&P said:
There’s a reason that pilots and trainees from all over the world come to the States for flight training. The fee structure would absolutely crush General Aviation, manufacturing (already struggling) and associated industries.

For example, some airports in central Florida are fighting the good fight against user fees being collected by automated ADS-B tracking.

www.aopa.org

AOPA seeks to limit aircraft tracking for airport fees

AOPA urged the FAA to block third-party use of ADS-B data that airports may soon (or already) use to monitor traffic and assess landing fees.
www.aopa.org
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I have no problem with user fees…

…for aircraft over 12,500lbs MTOW or that are turbine-powered.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I have no problem with user fees…

…for aircraft over 12,500lbs MTOW or that are turbine-powered.
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THIS!

Why is Joe Skyhawk getting dinged for >$25 landing/ramp/handling fees when that revenue could easily be made up (and then some) charging Charlie Challenger III what is essentially a rounding error?

Don’t get me started on FBO fees for light piston GA. “Handling fees”, pshaw! I set my brake where you told me to park 1/4 mile from the fbo and maybe some chocks were thrown on it for the hour I was there. Services? Well, I paid for the gas already. Maybe I made a cup of coffee in the keurig, and I definitely pissed in the urinal. Totally justifies the other $20 service fee.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I have no problem with user fees…

…for aircraft over 12,500lbs MTOW or that are turbine-powered.
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Unfortunately I think the lobbying power will have the opposite effect. Large turbine operating under 91 & 135 would be exempt, and 141 universities could advocate for some sort of exemption. Which leaves the regular 91 bug smasher and light airplane community footing the bill because they couldn’t afford better representation.
 
Fixtur said:
THIS!

Why is Joe Skyhawk getting dinged for >$25 landing/ramp/handling fees when that revenue could easily be made up (and then some) charging Charlie Challenger III what is essentially a rounding error?

Don’t get me started on FBO fees for light piston GA. “Handling fees”, pshaw! I set my brake where you told me to park 1/4 mile from the fbo and maybe some chocks were thrown on it for the hour I was there. Services? Well, I paid for the gas already. Maybe I made a cup of coffee in the keurig, and I definitely pissed in the urinal. Totally justifies the other $20 service fee.
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Could always be like Million Air at RIV or VCV….$4800 ramp fee for doing nothing but marshaling my bird in and out. Even on the mil transient ramp at RIV, which isn’t even their ramp at that field.
 
MikeD said:
Could always be like Million Air at RIV or VCV….$4800 ramp fee for doing nothing but marshaling my bird in and out. Even on the mil transient ramp at RIV, which isn’t even their ramp at that field.
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You should hear the reactions to the fees being quoted for IAD during the inauguration, or NoLa for Super Bowl.

For people that like capitalism, they sure do complain a lot about the free market.
 
CFI A&P said:
You should hear the reactions to the fees being quoted for IAD during the inauguration, or NoLa for Super Bowl.

For people that like capitalism, they sure do complain a lot about the free market.
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One ought to get something tangible for the money they spend. There’s a fine line between free market and fleecing. At the end of the day, they charge what they charge, because carriers pay it. Simple as that. How they do it on a ramp that is owned by the government, im not sure.
 
MikeD said:
Could always be like Million Air at RIV or VCV….$4800 ramp fee for doing nothing but marshaling my bird in and out. Even on the mil transient ramp at RIV, which isn’t even their ramp at that field.
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I may or may not know the guy that runs the RIV MillionAir.😀
 
Wardogg said:
I may or may not know the guy that runs the RIV MillionAir.😀
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How do they charge ramp fees on the military ramp? Don’t even get one of the free burgers for that huge ramp charge because it’s not on their ramp and too far to drive to get them.
 
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