Being a CFI at UND vs Being a CFI at XXX FBO

[Dugie8]

1200-1500 hours with 400 multi? Do you think the mins are going to raise a lot in the future? I was thinking about getting 1000 at most here and hopefully getting on with Horizon. A lot can change by the time Im ready.

I really wouldn't venture to guess at mins being raised. It took me three years to get that time. The "killer" is all the sim time, I would guess I have about 600 hours sitting in the sims with students, that sucks from the time building standpoint, but I loved it from a teaching standpoint.

It really depends on the students you get for how much and how quickly you build time. Two semeseters of 6 102 students, you will go crazy, but you will build time, or 2 semesters of 221 students, and you will be real good at signing off cross countries. Luck of the draw, as is anything in life.

UND ain't the great mecca in the east for flying, but sure is hell isn't the worst place on the planet to be either to learn or teach. The biggest reason I went was for the increased chances of being hire by a regional. I don't like flying recreationally, don't know why, just don't. I love flying for a job. I suspect there are a few people like me out there. UND is a good fit for that.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Don, you flew with one UND guy, who had a bad day in a Cessna, and now UND shelters its students??? UND doesn't build charachter? That is awfully big of you to say, glad you have been appointed to judge, jury and executioner of all that is holy in the aviaiton world.

There is no bubble at UND, there are weather mins, just like any FBO would have, the one here in RST wouldn't let me rent a 182 because the weather was going to be less than 1000 ovc in DVL (where I was going) in July.

People have always pissed and moaned about not being able to sit on the ground and go get a burger, blah blah blah. That is because I am sitting in dispatch waiting for the airplane so my student, who is more concerned with learning to fly than getting a hamburger at Hooters in the Mall of America, can go on our lesson. Airplanes make money in the air, not sitting on the ramp for 3 hours while social butterflies make their rounds.

UND used to let students overnight airplanes so they could go somewhere else, until people started abusing, coming back days later.

By far, the students turned out from UND were head and shoulders above the average part 61 student. Yup I said it, I flew with a lot of "test course" students who couldn't find their ass with both hands a flashlight and a map. A practice area, my god!!! what is that. You mean I have to keep a flight log for my cross countries AND stay on course, my god!

See I can do it too, make generalizations about other ways of doing things.

By the way Don, I had the misfortune of sharing the crew van with a UPS 757 Capt in LRD, the guy could not have been more of an ass to my crew, the hotel staff or the van driver, all because he couldn't read a schedule and determine the appropriate time to be in the lobby for a van ride to the airplane. Does that make all UPS pilots dickheads?

:yeahthat:

61 and 141 have their advantages and disadvantages, as do mom and pop operations, large flight schools, and the military. There's nothing wrong to favor one over the other, but you should keep an open mind about the other, something I've noticed Don certainly doesn't.

 

[airplanerik]

UND used to let students overnight airplanes so they could go somewhere else, until people started abusing, coming back days later.

You can still do overnights, you just gotta get it "OK'ed" which is usually pretty easy to do.

 

[Dugie8]

You can still do overnights, you just gotta get it "OK'ed" which is usually pretty easy to do.

Cool, for a while when I was working you couldn't, as a student solo flight anyway. There were ways of getting an overnite in, it just took creative interps of wx forecasts and proper placement of a fellow instructors parents home.....:nana2:

 

[Blip16]

honestly i am hoping to do both, GFKFS and UND that way i get the experience of both. i have learned a lot just across the road from UND and i want to see what i can learn instructing at UND.

they both have their plusses and minuses i think the only way to decide what is right is to do both

 

[TXaviator]

You can still do overnights, you just gotta get it "OK'ed" which is usually pretty easy to do.

not that easy. ive been denied twice because i wanted to visit friends. *shrug* i understand they need the planes for other flights to make revenue though.

 

[airplanerik]

It does depend on the time of year/availability of the planes. Summertime, it is really easy to do. They were even gonna let me go all the way to Chicago... it was all set up and ready to go. It was just such a long distance that the weather went bad on me and I couldn't do it.

 

[DE727UPS]

"That is awfully big of you to say, glad you have been appointed to judge, jury and executioner of all that is holy in the aviaiton world"

Hey Dugie, that would be my personal opinion based on my experience so far. I think you are overstating the value of that opinion with your remarks. But thanks for the compliment...

"Does that make all UPS pilots dickheads?"

I wasn't there so I can't say. If you choose to think so, then knock yourself out.

I was there, personally, with respect to the incident mentioned and have personal experiece that backs up my opinion. UND guys train inside a bubble. The real world will burst that bubble kinda like the difference between sim and IOE does. A 61 guy has some advantage cause he was never in the bubble in the first place.

In some cases, I think that makes him quite equal to a UND guy, maybe even better....

 

[Farva]

Im sure most instructors would say the Pros outweigh the cons by a longshot. heres my list

Pros
as mentioned above, aircraft, hiring, ect.
college environment
motivated students/instructors
personal use of aircraft
instructor rates for MEI applicants
lots of instructors=big family, as cheesy as it sounds
getting paid to watch Office Space

Cons
large instructor core, less easily to please everyone
select few "snitch" flight instructors
regulated environment (mostly applies to students)
Who stole the cheese?

All in all you can tell most instructors love it here.

Aint that the truth erik, i agree with ya man:nana2:

 

[Tommay85]

"That is awfully big of you to say, glad you have been appointed to judge, jury and executioner of all that is holy in the aviaiton world"

Hey Dugie, that would be my personal opinion based on my experience so far. I think you are overstating the value of that opinion with your remarks. But thanks for the compliment...

"Does that make all UPS pilots dickheads?"

I wasn't there so I can't say. If you choose to think so, then knock yourself out.

I was there, personally, with respect to the incident mentioned and have personal experiece that backs up my opinion. UND guys train inside a bubble. The real world will burst that bubble kinda like the difference between sim and IOE does. A 61 guy has some advantage cause he was never in the bubble in the first place.

In some cases, I think that makes him quite equal to a UND guy, maybe even better....

I guess I'm just not seeing exactly what you mean when you say "bubble". Yeah, when you're at the home airport and in the practice areas you're in the local area and follow those procedures, you know this though. I don't see how that is any different than any other place. Everyone has their own policies and local area operations. I don't see what's different about flying outside of the local area here vs. getting your training at an FBO.

The only thing I can possibly think of that I haven't been exposed to during my training, as far as flying piston airplanes, is flying around terrain higher than a couple thousand feet and flying over large bodies of water. I think if you have a problem doing this here it's an individual student/instructor problem, and yes, I'll say that is probably a problem here. To many people just want to check off the lesson being done. Which isn't the school's fault.

I can appreciate your opinion, just clarifying what you mean.

 

[DE727UPS]

"I can appreciate your opinion, just clarifying what you mean"

When you get the keys to the plane, does someone else have to say it's okay? The more that is true the less you grow in your decision making process as you work your way up. That's pretty much what I mean and how I'd argue that training outside an academy environment is a plus.

I don't expect UND guys to agree, especially at this forum. Just answering your question.

 

[Tommay85]

"I can appreciate your opinion, just clarifying what you mean"

When you get the keys to the plane, do you have to ask anyone if it's okay for you to go?

As far as actually asking another person, I do not. I make the decision completely on my own. My instructor might remind me like "hey we gotta do steep spirals today, so 1300 foot ceilings probably won't be good for that don't you think?". That's all the input I ever get, if any.

I hear a whole lot of other people not making the decison themselves around here though, in the upper level courses no less. Sadly, a few of those guys become instructors here and those are the ones that are scared to take their students up or send them solo when the conditions are anything less than perfect. We do have policies for weather that we have to follow, but they're pretty lax. I see what you're getting at, but I still think that's an individual student/instructor problem like I mentioned above.

 

[DE727UPS]

"I hear a whole lot of other people not making the decison themselves around here though, in the upper level courses no less. Sadly, a few of those guys become instructors here and those are the ones that are scared to take their students up or send them solo when the conditions are anything less than perfect."

I hear what your saying. My point is, at a smaller school there is nobody but YOU to make the calls. No infrastructure or bureaucracy. That breeds a sort of independence.

It's that independence, enforced early on, that lead me to where I am. That would be my opinion....

 

[ZUKO]

I see what you are saying. Im only working on my private and I usually feel like I do not make the go and no decisions. How ever, my flight instructor gives me great insight on what goes in to his decisions and takes my opinion into account.

The reason I picked UND over another FBO was because UND has a structured program with deadlines that need to be met. I wasn't sure if I would be able to do a good enough job not putting off training depending on how busy I was with my degree.

One thing I dislike about UND is the flying weather. Due to the weather and the occasional bad mag, I have not many hardly any progress in the last 3 weeks.

 

[TXaviator]

One thing I dislike about UND is the flying weather. Due to the weather and the occasional bad mag, I have not many hardly any progress in the last 3 weeks.

hahahaha don't get me started!

im hoping to finish this current course by oh, lets say, spring break.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I hear what your saying. My point is, at a smaller school there is nobody but YOU to make the calls. No infrastructure or bureaucracy. That breeds a sort of independence.

It's that independence, enforced early on, that lead me to where I am. That would be my opinion....

I'm not saying that one way is better than the other, that you're wrong, or anything like that. But I'd just like to point out that there are two sides to everything. Yeah, you learn a lot being able to just take the keys and go, but with that comes a much higher element of risk...something we were just recently reminded of when we lost two students this weekend while they were flying at a local FBO.

In my experience here at UND, I have found that really, the limiting factor on weather usually is the flight instructor. Yes, we have a supervisor of flight who can shut down operations if weather is too bad, but I have found they really only do so when people really have no business flying in the current conditions.

I respect your opinion, and I have no doubt that the part 61 mom and pop flight school is an effective way to train. I also understand that there are tons of flight academies popping up that simply train people to pass the checkride in as little time as possible. But I really don't seem it fair that you seem to be lumping all large flight schools together based on a few convenient observations.

 

[ZUKO]

hahahaha don't get me started!

im hoping to finish this current course by oh, lets say, spring break.

This is why I think doing as much flying in the summer is the way to go.

When I first came here and saw I was going to be flying 3 times a week, I was sooo happy. That was soooo far from the truth.

My next scheduled launch is tuesday. And thats exactly when the next snow fall is expected.

I was suppose to do my solo last thursday but it was only dual because the taxi ramps were soooo icy. They really need to get the airport in better condition faster.

 

[eglplt]

I hear what your saying. My point is, at a smaller school there is nobody but YOU to make the calls. No infrastructure or bureaucracy. That breeds a sort of independence.

It's that independence, enforced early on, that lead me to where I am. That would be my opinion....

So you are telling me that at "your" part 61 fbo there will be nobody saying a word if a 100 hour private pilot decides he is going to take his buddy flying in the ratty old 172 when they are reporting 100' overcast, 1/4 mile vis, freezing rain, snow, thunderstorms, and a 30 knot crosswind? Give me a break!

 

[Tommay85]

This is why I think doing as much flying in the summer is the way to go.

When I first came here and saw I was going to be flying 3 times a week, I was sooo happy. That was soooo far from the truth.

My next scheduled launch is tuesday. And thats exactly when the next snow fall is expected.

I was suppose to do my solo last thursday but it was only dual because the taxi ramps were soooo icy. They really need to get the airport in better condition faster.

Yeah, the weather always seems to get into a cycle where it's crappy on your one of the launch day patterns, mwf or tths. When I had 323 this last spring semester, all the tues, thurs, sat guys got done on time for the most part. Hardly any of the MWF guys finished on time, which I did not. I was about a month late. I'm getting into a really crappy situation with CFI right now. I haven't been home in 4 months and really want to leave when I get done with finals. I pretty much have to go home for a couple days after finals. At the same time, I want to make sure I get done in time for the hiring workshop but don't like the idea of driving back and fourth. Is it sad that I want to prolong trying to get a job with UND just for the sake of gaining a few days on my break?

 

[Dugie8]

"I can appreciate your opinion, just clarifying what you mean"

When you get the keys to the plane, does someone else have to say it's okay? The more that is true the less you grow in your decision making process as you work your way up. That's pretty much what I mean and how I'd argue that training outside an academy environment is a plus.

I don't expect UND guys to agree, especially at this forum. Just answering your question.

No, can't get any simplier than that. There is a dispatch that hands out the books and keys for the airplanes and SOF (I did that job for over 2 years) that assigns practice areas and monitors weather, but no one takes lil Johny's hand and tells him it is ok to go fly.

There have been times when the SOF had to step in and keep people from doing something stupid, like flying to Warren MN in DEC, at night, when the outside temp was -20 with a -40 windchill and no shelter at the Warren airport. Of course in Don's world, that would be a good learning experience for the airplane to have a mechanical problem in Warren and the student and instructor loose a few toes and fingers to frostbite.

Like I said, the FBO in RST would not let me rent an airplane for flight to Devlis Lake, DVL, because the ceiling was going to be below their mins. Would you send a private pilot applicant on their solo xc with less than 2000 foot ceiling and 5 mile vis with a crosswind of 25 knots at the destination airport?