ATP Final Rule Signed

HVYMETALDRVR said:
I'll be the one to say it, I'm actually pretty happy about it... the 1,500TT is fair, 1,000 for a Part 141 University? maybe a silly exemption but better than the 250 hr exemption that was proposed. Plus, it requires airline pilots to have real experience and will probably lead to some kind of pay recovery for new hire pilots in the longer term. I can tell you right now my company is sweating bullets over this. Were one of those regionals that doesn't like to hire below 1500TT but occasionally does to fill seats when necessary to avoid paying a competitive wage and to delay contract negotiations, now that option is off the table.

Don't get me wrong, its not perfect... but its a step in the right direction.
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I think it's fair and very reasonable for flying a planeload of the general public around. The days of Beech 1900s and JetStreams are (mostly) over... Now we have these large regional airplanes like EMB 175s, CRJ 700/900s, and so on that absolutely should have two well qualified pilots up front.

Also, I'm not one of those "I got mine and now I'm pulling up the ladder types". On my first day of 121 ground school, I had my ATP and over 2,000 hours. So did many of my classmates.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I think it's fair and very reasonable for flying a planeload of the general public around. The days of Beech 1900s and JetStreams are (mostly) over... Now we have these large regional airplanes like EMB 175s, CRJ 700/900s, and so on that absolutely should have two well qualified pilots up front.

Also, I'm not one of those "I got mine and now I'm pulling up the ladder types". On my first day of 121 ground school, I had my ATP and over 2,000 hours. So did many of my classmates.
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Ditto I did the 141 University route and due to the economy and everything else still had over 2000tt as well...
 
I have to sort through this, I have a 4 year aviation degree from Baylor but did most of my training part 61 (our 141 school here is terrible).

If I'm eligible, it's time to take the ATP written and throw apps out
 
middies10 said:
I scrolled through the PDF but was anyone able to pick up on anything saying about getting the ATP written done before August, that you wont have to go through the ATP CTP??
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Here is what I found regarding the written. It seems to me that if you get it done before the rule change takes effect you will not have to go through the course.

5. FAA knowledge test for an ATP certificate
In the NPRM, the FAA proposed to revise the aeronautical knowledge areas in §61.155
to incorporate the new knowledge areas in the ATP CTP. We noted that such a revision would
result in changes to the ATP knowledge test. Commenters such as IATA and the IFL Group
believed the current ATP knowledge test is inadequate. Commenters assert the current
preparatory products available to applicants of the knowledge test only ensure rapid rote
memorization of the material and not knowledge retention. The FAA concurs and has determined
academic knowledge gained and evaluated in a classroom setting, reinforced with demonstration
and experience in an FSTD, and then validated by a revised written knowledge test gives the
applicant the best chance of knowledge retention. This knowledge will allow the student to
perform more effectively upon entering an air carrier environment—the ultimate goal of the Act.
The FAA also proposed to extend the validity period for the knowledge test for an ATP
certificate to five years in consideration of the applicant’s time and financial commitment to the
ATP CTP. The FAA considered the extension appropriate due to the proposed elimination of the
ability for air carrier pilots to use expired knowledge tests. The FAA received no comments on
this proposal. In the final rule, FAA has retained the five-year validity period forthe ATP
knowledge test only for those pilots who pass the knowledge test after having completed the
ATP CTP – meaning any test passed after July 31, 2014. The FAA has also retained the
provision that allows pilots employed by certificate holders in parts 121, 125, or 135 to use
expired knowledge tests. As set forth in §61.39, pilots employed in parts 125 and 135 may use an
expired knowledge test if they have completed the ATP CTP and the operator’s approved pilot-66
in-command training or checking program. New hire pilots in part 121 operations may use an
expired knowledge test if they have completed the ATP CTP and the operator’s initial training
program.15 These pilots employed by air carriers are subject to additional training and evaluation
requirements that will ensure that they have a continued understanding of the general concepts of
the ATP CTP. If an applicant outside of an air carrier environment fails to take the practical test
within five years of taking the knowledge test, he or she must retake the knowledge test to
validate retention of the subject areas of the ATP CTP. The FAA has modified §61.35 to make
clear that a person may not take the knowledge test for the ATP certificate with an airplane
category multiengine class rating until the person is 18 years of age.
Finally, as set forth in existing §61.49, those applicants who fail the knowledge test for
the ATP certificate after completing the ATP CTP are required to receive the necessary remedial
training from an approved ATP CTP training provider and receive an endorsement before
retaking the knowledge test
 
Wait, so is the new decreased XC 200 hour minimum apply ONLY if I have a bachelor's with a major in aviation or does it apply within the 1500 TT as a whole no matter who you are? I am surprised nobody has brought this up in more detail because one of the challenges of the 1500TT is squeezing in the 500 hour XC time. Most people teaching for example don't reach the 500 XC requirement until about 1900 hours or so....
 
So what about the ATP written. If you meet the new ATP minimums and have an ATP written from before the date this change takes effect, is that written still valid? Or do you have to take a new written?
 
I really like the 1000 hr SIC prior to making PIC provision. Also, they did include a 'restricted ATP' provision for those just a a year or a few hours short of the hard number requirements that are already in the system. Looks like Gulley keeps his job.

As for the 'Riddle Provision', I think it's not entirely unreasonable, and the 750 additional required hours tempered with classroom training are a relatively reasonable compromise considering how it could have gone.

Personally I consider this a big win for safety and the profession.

From an ALPA blast to clarify: (bold added by me)

"Other highlights of the rule include:

A requirement for a pilot to have a minimum of 1,000 flight hours as a co-pilot in air carrier operations prior to serving as a captain for a U.S. airline.
Enhanced training requirements for an ATP certificate, including 50 hours of multi-engine flight experience and completion of a new FAA-approved training program.
******An allowance for pilots with fewer than 1,500 hours of flight time or who have not reached the minimum age of 23 to obtain a “restricted privileges” ATP certificate. A restricted privileges ATP certificate allows a pilot to serve as a co-pilot until he or she obtains the necessary 1,500 hours.*****(Grandfather clause)

The options are:
§ Military pilots with 750 hours total time as a pilot;

§ Graduates holding a Bachelor’s degree with an aviation major with 1,000 hours total time as a pilot;

§ Graduates holding an Associate’s degree with an aviation major with 1,250 hours;

§ Pilots who are at least 21 years old with 1,500 flight hours.

The rule is consistent with the Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010. The rule addresses recommendations from an Aviation Rulemaking Committee, the National Transportation Safety Board, and the FAA’s Call to Action to improve airline safety."
image.jpg
 
Screaming_Emu said:
The only "Aviation university" is Riddle. There are many other universities out there with comparable programs that will cost the same as flight training elsewhere + the cost of a degree from a state university.

Regardless, if they take out 100k in debt to avoid another 500 hours of flight instructing, they are the people who I am talking about in the first place.
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Why blame Riddle? Why not blame UND? Purdue? FIT Aviation? Wester Michigan? ASU? SIU-Carbondale, MTSU, OSU, etc.
Not everyone should go to college, and not everyone should or can Flight Instruct. A de-service is done to the student. This rule kind of leaves no other choice efficient option to a flying career.

Not everyone can afford the loan. Debt crisis already here. The debt bubble is approaching.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Thank you dysfunctional regulators! Your doing a swell job on behalf of the AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Those currently flying 121, will soon have a much bigger hand / leverage to negotiate pilot contracts with. Next 2 years should be interesting.

I do not foresee an increase in people making the career pilot jump with this much red tape, thick glass ceiling, and obstacles. Not Worth making $25-30K per year. Not even worth making $45K per year approx. 8-10 years into regional flying. Something has to give from this... PAY RAISE, Airline Issued Loan Pipeline Program, etc.
 
It's interesting to not that Riddle did training under part 142. They rule specifically says that the only people that are eligible for the R-ATP are people with 4 and 2 year aviation degrees (which are prescribe in AC 61-139) that received instrument and comm cents from the 141 IHL or the affiliated flight school. Says nothing about. 61, 152, etc, which a lot of aviation schools use.

Riddle might be out? Idk. I used my GI Bill to attend ERAU and dud 3 ratings there. 1 part 61, 1 part 141, 1 part 142. I left to start a job at 100 credits hours and transferred my credits to TESC. Who knows if I will qualify now. I don't really care, I'll be getting my ATP the old fashioned way with 1500tt, 500xc, etc.

My question is now going forward, will you need to just MEET ATP mins to begin 121 training as they'll issue the ATP/type during training like they've been doing recently? Or will you need to complete this new ATP certification course PRIOR to applying and have the ATP in hand before class?
 
There is a small caveat that with the bachelor's requirement, you must have completed your instrument rating and commercial certificate through a 141 program.
 
jtrain609 said:
Oh I can, if you're a can't hack it complainer.

Autothrust Blue
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I already hacked it, thanks to opportunistic scheduling and not being home much. ;) Rules is rules, got mine. :-P

Experience makes you a better pilot, but training, knowledge and professionalism help too. The rule is a net win, but to say that it would have prevented Colgan 3407 lacks credibility.
 
ScorpionStinger said:
Why blame Riddle? Why not blame UND? Purdue? FIT Aviation? Wester Michigan? ASU? SIU-Carbondale, MTSU, OSU, etc.
Not everyone should go to college, and not everyone should or can Flight Instruct. A de-service is done to the student. This rule kind of leaves no other choice efficient option to a flying career.

Not everyone can afford the loan. Debt crisis already here. The debt bubble is approaching.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Thank you dysfunctional regulators! Your doing a swell job on behalf of the AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Those currently flying 121, will soon have a much bigger hand / leverage to negotiate pilot contracts with. Next 2 years should be interesting.

I do not foresee an increase in people making the career pilot jump with this much red tape, thick glass ceiling, and obstacles. Not Worth making $25-30K per year. Not even worth making $45K per year approx. 8-10 years into regional flying. Something has to give from this... PAY RAISE, Airline Issued Loan Pipeline Program, etc.
Click to expand...


I see a dwindling American pilot supply, a Congress and public with little to no interest in giving labor any negotiating power, let alone a pilot workforce with a potential stranglehold on an industry, and a potential for cabotage. Maybe all these kids we CFIs are training now trying to build time and meet these requirements at places like Transpac or wherever will simply head home, get a bunch of heavy turbine experience, and when we are ready with our logbooks full of 152 dual given to apply to regionals our former students will be applying to Delta, UA or wherever on emergency issued work visas for pennies on the dollar due to a lack of domestic talent meeting regulatory and experience requirements. (Read leverage against a pilot labor force with renewed power in negotiations.)

There was a thread on here a while ago about this creating a professional development path with A to C with no B. The no mans land of professional development between ratings and the first potential career rather than time building job is going to scare a lot of good people off. How many CFIs does the industry support before it is an $8. an hour abused professional purgatory like regionals are now? At least regionals give benefits.

Dont get me wrong, I think it is a good effort to address problems with the qualifications many regionals were relying on, I just think it totally misses the problem of professionally developing civilian pilots in the US.

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