Article: FAA won't back 1500 hour requirement

I think that the training requirements, the concept of requiring higher time first time 121 pilots, and pilot fatigue are not really interconnected.
...

I think a guy or gal with more than 1500TT will look at themselves and make a decision as to whether or not with the rest they've been given was adequate. A guy who comes into the industry with 250TT and starts learning the habit of flying while fatigued will come to think of it as a normal part of life at a regional airline, and then won't hesitate to fly the trip, whereas the crewmember who has already scared themselves by flying too tired in a smaller airplane with fewer lives in their hands may think twice.
 
We were trained, at first, to do this in the CRJ. Our big thing, thanks to 3701, was stalls are different at high altitude than at 10K in the sim. After 3407, they've ditched our stall profiles and gone to a more "real world" training scenario of base to final, spoilers out, flaps 30, and 61% N1. Recover at the shaker. No more "power out and don't lose more than 100 ft" stuff. They're even telling us to slightly lower the nose now.


In part 135 anyway, approach to landing stalls seem pretty common. Pretty much every check airman I've flown with wanted me to be in a descending turn with power reduced but not usually at idle, full or partial flaps, and stall there usually by pulling power and keeping the nose level to simulate trying to "stretch the glide." I think its incredibly good practice, and more accurate than simply doing a power off stall in the landing configuration.

Our Power on stalls mimic the conditions on departure, climbing out with a notch of flaps, typically a turn of some sort and pitch for the moon. Its usually more realistic (imho) than the ones we did in the 1900 during training.
 
.... Depends who you ask. I think you mean to say "hired" as low timers, since the law was in reference to hiring practices. Marvin wasn't hired with much. Rebecca had a whole 1700 right?
2200 for the FO, I think the CA was 3400?

Anyways, if the argument is that both the FO and the CA didn't have enough flight time before getting hired and their several thousand hours of 121 time was insufficient to prepare them for the series of events that lead to the Buffalo crash, then there is only 1 way to fix it: Put every airline pilot with less than 1500 hours of non-121 time on unpaid leave until they build up those hours in GA, freight, or charter.
 
I think a guy or gal with more than 1500TT will look at themselves and make a decision as to whether or not with the rest they've been given was adequate. A guy who comes into the industry with 250TT and starts learning the habit of flying while fatigued will come to think of it as a normal part of life at a regional airline, and then won't hesitate to fly the trip, whereas the crewmember who has already scared themselves by flying too tired in a smaller airplane with fewer lives in their hands may think twice.

I know some senior pilots with over 5000 that will fly fatigued in a heartbeat. They're also the same ones that will duck bellow minimums to "take a look" and dispatch into a t-storm. When you say something about being fatigued, they like to demean you and tell you to pay your dues. This would be laughable if they weren't real conversations I've had. Needless to say, there IS a list of pilots that my family are instructed to take the next flight if they're flying the airplane.
 
2200 for the FO, I think the CA was 3400?

Anyways, if the argument is that both the FO and the CA didn't have enough flight time before getting hired and their several thousand hours of 121 time was insufficient to prepare them for the series of events that lead to the Buffalo crash, then there is only 1 way to fix it: Put every airline pilot with less than 1500 hours of non-121 time on unpaid leave until they build up those hours in GA, freight, or charter.

I don't think people are magically prepared at 1500hrs, but you weed out a large percentage of pilots who wouldn't/couldn't make it to 1500hrs on their own and maybe shouldn't be in the industry.

Getting 600hrs and then going to a regional is not that hard, so pretty much anyone can do it. Currently we have the door wide-open to anyone.
 
Has it ever been discussed to increase recurrent training?

Depending on how it's implemented, it may or may not do any good. For us, increasing recurrent training might mean the company just has to put out another power point with a 5 question quiz at the end. Not one pilot here has actually received training on LIDO charts other than a web based presentation. We switched from Jepps to LIDO, they gave us some on-line training with no classroom training, and said "You're good!" FAA signed off on it, too. Nevermind the fact that during the time the CAs carried LIDO and the FOs still carried Jepps there were TONS of errors found, and we've STILL got guys today that don't know where to find some information. Some guys still carry around the "green pages" with old company info that hasn't been updated in 2 years simply because they don't know the updated information is in the green binder on the FO's side. They carry around old AIR INC and batphone charts, too because they don't know where to go to find the current ones. The only reason I found out was I got bored flying BOS-MEM and started flipping through the book to see what was in there.

The other hurdle you're gonna have is jeopardy events. Seems like every time a PC cycle rolls around over here, we've got guys rubbing their hands looking for people to bust. If you actually turn PCs into a situation where you LEARN something rather than a "prove to me you belong here" sim ride, guys will be more open to it. That being said, there has to be some level of proficiency that if you fall behind, you get the help you need to get caught back up. If you can't stay on that schedule, well, then it gets serious.
 
...frozen ATP re introduced...

you heard it here first.
What does that mean?

*edit* I googled it. Does it really just mean CPL+IR+ATP written? Once you have your CPL and IR, $300 + an afternoon at ATP will get you the rest.

And the other definition says CPL+IR+ATP Written+ATP checkride, and your ATP is "frozen" until you meet the experience requirements.

OK wth...if the internets are always right, and the internets says 2 different thing...I'm seriously starting to doubt that everything I read online is true.
 
A frozen ATP is a CPL with the ATP written and checkride complete. Basically you have an ATP but its frozen until you meet the experience requirements.

Atleast thats the definition of it in Europe.
 
This isn't exactly news. Babbitt has been opposed to this from the start. Congress has still been pushing it, however, and it's already made it through the House. The Senate version is slightly different, which means it will have to go through conference, but there's still a very good chance that this requirement will make it, despite Mr. Babbitt's opposition.
 
A frozen ATP is a CPL with the ATP written and checkride complete. Basically you have an ATP but its frozen until you meet the experience requirements.

Atleast thats the definition of it in Europe.

I don't think you won't find it in the JAR/FCL anywhere so it is an unofficial term.
You have to have the requirements for an ATPL including 500 hours multi crew to take the skills test for ATPL issuance, no?
 
This isn't exactly news. Babbitt has been opposed to this from the start. Congress has still been pushing it, however, and it's already made it through the House. The Senate version is slightly different, which means it will have to go through conference, but there's still a very good chance that this requirement will make it, despite Mr. Babbitt's opposition.

Agree with this. The families group is VERY vociferous.

The FAA didn't want age 65 either, and only by threat of congressional action did they start to move that way.

Richman
 
Not to be picky, but my younger brother has less than 1500 hours and is a highly skilled jet pilot, likely a better stick than any regional pilot. At less than 200 hours he was flying multi million dollar jet airplanes. Yes, he is military and the point is with a superior training program and selection process, the 1500 hour rule is irrelevant!

Edit: just had to add I don't consider Riddle, DCA or FSA superior training programs. ;)


You've missed the point entirely. I highlighted your primary point so I can pick it apart and show you how it doesn't apply.

"Yes, he is military" - First point. He's already trained to be highly disciplined, adhere to procedure, and is closely monitored by peers who do not accept slipping standard.

"with a superior training program" - Civilian training programs are dictated by cost. Military training programs are dictated by the end product they produce.

"and selection program" That 'cost effective' civilian training program? It's available to anybody able to write a check with a sufficient number of digits on it. How do you separate the wheat from the chaff in the training process? You can't even do it with examiners- many schools have staff examiners who have incentives to pass license applicants. They may not come out and just say such things, but they do.

"the 1500 hour rule is irrelevant." Not in this case. Given that the non-military, non-superior training program that has absolutely no limiting selection criteria is what currently feeds the pool of airline applicants, SOMETHING must set a minimum standard.

That 1500 mark becomes important in that regard. By not letting someone who has slipped through the gaping holes in the training and selection process sit in an airline cockpit until they've had a year or two to prove their mettle in the real world, you induce a selection process.

In other words, those not actually serious about treating professional piloting as a discipline will not either a) not make it that far or b) pursue other things that interest them more.

In other words, friend, comparing your military trained kin to the pilots coming out of civilian pilot puppy mills is purely apples to oranges.
 
I think a guy or gal with more than 1500TT will look at themselves and make a decision as to whether or not with the rest they've been given was adequate. A guy who comes into the industry with 250TT and starts learning the habit of flying while fatigued will come to think of it as a normal part of life at a regional airline, and then won't hesitate to fly the trip, whereas the crewmember who has already scared themselves by flying too tired in a smaller airplane with fewer lives in their hands may think twice.


I have to agree with the above.

I've flown tired as a single pilot in a small plane in the dark. Scared me senseless.

I've also been worked to exhaustion as a non-pilot crew member. The thought of driving the ship in those conditions scared me senseless.

An airline cockpit is not the plane where a pilot should discover the actual limits of their mind, body, and skills.
 
You've missed the point entirely. I highlighted your primary point so I can pick it apart and show you how it doesn't apply.

Nah, just a difference of opinion!

"Yes, he is military" - First point. He's already trained to be highly disciplined, adhere to procedure, and is closely monitored by peers who do not accept slipping standard.

I have met as many undisciplined soldiers as highly disciplined soldiers. Most of the former would not make it past the selection process to become a pilot, so again I refer to the selection process.

"with a superior training program" - Civilian training programs are dictated by cost. Military training programs are dictated by the end product they produce.

I agree. While some change is in the air, current programs could be modeled better to produce a better product. As far as cost is concerned, which will be less - a high quality compact training program, say 300 hours to ATP standards or a normal 250 hour commercial training program with 1250 of extra time bought (and you know that will happen!)?

"and selection program" That 'cost effective' civilian training program? It's available to anybody able to write a check with a sufficient number of digits on it. How do you separate the wheat from the chaff in the training process? You can't even do it with examiners- many schools have staff examiners who have incentives to pass license applicants. They may not come out and just say such things, but they do.

Many regionals already have a more difficult selection process than others, including written tests similar to the ATP written, cognitive speed tests, one-on-one or panel knowledge reviews and full motion sim rides. This selection process is in place to weed out those who might have made it past the aforementioned corrupt examiners.

"the 1500 hour rule is irrelevant." Not in this case. Given that the non-military, non-superior training program that has absolutely no limiting selection criteria is what currently feeds the pool of airline applicants, SOMETHING must set a minimum standard.

Forgive me for stating my opinion as fact - while I view 1500 hours as arbitrary, that is merely my opinion. I think that putting better training programs in place and standardizing a strict selection process would be more cost effective and produce a better product than using a 1500 hour benchmark. The term 'frozen ATP' is being tossed out a lot recently and I am personally highly in favor of that notion.

That 1500 mark becomes important in that regard. By not letting someone who has slipped through the gaping holes in the training and selection process sit in an airline cockpit until they've had a year or two to prove their mettle in the real world, you induce a selection process.

In other words, those not actually serious about treating professional piloting as a discipline will not either a) not make it that far or b) pursue other things that interest them more.

There will be people who slip through the gaps at 300 hours or 1500 hours. When I typed on the LR-Jet, my sim partner was a guy with 3000 hours of mostly banner towing and he couldn't handle the sim for the SIC type and had to retake the check-ride twice.

In other words, friend, comparing your military trained kin to the pilots coming out of civilian pilot puppy mills is purely apples to oranges.

Back to my original opinion, I believe that a superior initial training program (possibly frozen ATP) and a strict selection process would be more beneficial and less costly than imposing a 1500 hour minimum. I agree these do not exist in our current puppy mills, however, it is already being done with our military, Europe and elsewhere abroad so it is possible to implement.

My worthless opinion in length, carry on!!
 
Many regionals already have a more difficult selection process than others, including written tests similar to the ATP written, cognitive speed tests, one-on-one or panel knowledge reviews and full motion sim rides. This selection process is in place to weed out those who might have made it past the aforementioned corrupt examiners.


The problem with this is the gouges available all over the internet negate this to a large extent. Unless the regional changes their interview weekly, the next group coming through know the questions on the written (most of them at least), what the sim profile is going to be and what questions get asked by the panel/one-on-one interview. Those of us that have regional jobs now, what was one of the first things you did when you found out you had an interview? I know what I did: looked for the gouge on the net. Wasn't that hard to find, and it was pretty accurate, too. Now, the cognitive tests (for about the one regional that still does that), you can't really study for those. Problem is, most regionals ditched some of those things because they were eliminating too many applicants. Pinnacle doesn't even have a sim eval anymore. They had it when I interviews, and it was gone less than a year later.
 
If I were hiring, I'd do lots of CogTests and MMPI! :)

Nothing like sitting next to a guy that keeps a foil hat in his flight kit for three days.
 
Back
Top