Article: FAA won't back 1500 hour requirement

So basically what you are saying is this new regulation, which is designed to prevent accidents from the Coglan crash from ever happening again, would have in fact not prevented this accident or similar from happening due to the fact that both pilots were in fact over 1500 TT.

Exactly, HR 3371 has never been about safety, its about ALPA, a job shortage, furloughed pilots, politics (senate) and the genral publics knee jerk reaction (crash), and Babbit called it out the other day. We need this bill to ensure that the skys are safer...and if that means more focus on training and less on hours than so be it...period
 
I may be about some of the things you mention above, but it is also about safety, and any RJ captain that's had to fly with 200 hour pilots can vouch for that.
 
I may be about some of the things you mention above, but it is also about safety, and any RJ captain that's had to fly with 200 hour pilots can vouch for that.

I'll bet some 1900 CAs that fly short hops in South FL can too.
 
in all honesty, what am I going to know about icing in a Dash 8 with 1500hrs of slow flight and stalls in a 172
 
Back to my original opinion, I believe that a superior initial training program (possibly frozen ATP) and a strict selection process would be more beneficial and less costly than imposing a 1500 hour minimum. I agree these do not exist in our current puppy mills, however, it is already being done with our military, Europe and elsewhere abroad so it is possible to implement.


Perhaps I haven't conveyed my opinion fully.

This is about stewardship. The airlines have demonstrated that they will hire anyone with a pulse and minimum legal qualifications. They've entered into agreements with training 'academies' and flight schools to ensure a steady flow of applicants. They've intentionally arranged a scenario where the cheapest, hungriest, least experienced aviators get first crack at their job pool.

Why? They're the *cheapest*. By negating the requirements that include some amount of experience, they negate the intangible. The current trend in hiring has no regard towards the actual quality of the applicant, merely the cheapest pilot an airline can possibly acquire.

This process keeps the labor pool hungry, disorganized, and weak. By doing so, they make it impossible for the group to demand sane, reasonable working conditions. It's the "get 'em while they're young" philosophy.

By demanding a higher standard of the applicant pool, you empower pilots to brings greater bargaining leverage to the negotiating table. By doing *that*, you enable greater leeway in the decision making of pilots on the flight line.

End result? A safer, more practical air travel environment.

Rebecca Shaw stated on the CVR of Colgan 3407 that she felt she was too tired and too sick to fly. All the same, she didn't call in sick because she could not find or afford a 'crash pad' in the EWR/NYC area and would have been punitively denied the right to go home on travel benefits.

Colgan Air painted Shaw into a corner. Her inability to properly assist Captain Reslow- and if need be, correct him- was clearly evident.

50 people became a smoking hole as an end result.

The 1500 hour concept IS about restricting the labor pool. It's designed not only to restrict the nature and quantity of applicants, but also to empower and safeguard those who make it through the selection process.

One of my favorite teachers in high school told a story of a very powerful, successful man that she knew about. He did not attribute his success to his individual intelligence, skill, or other ability. He attributed it to finding the most intelligent, skillful people he knew and letting them work to their greatest potential. He gave them the things they needed to be great, and in turn they all reaped great rewards.

The airline labor concept as it exists today does not do that.

The 'carrot and stick' model of labor relations must end.

The 1500 hour rule is the first step.
 
in all honesty, what am I going to know about icing in a Dash 8 with 1500hrs of slow flight and stalls in a 172
If that is all you are experiencing, then I feel bad for you. Not saying you have to experience icing, but please go out and make PIC decisions. Have an alternator failure, and make a decision. Learn what weather is and does.

Don't rely on your Captain to babysit you. Be a productive member of the team. That is all anybody is asking...
 
The airline labor concept as it exists today does not do that.

The 'carrot and stick' model of labor relations must end.

e 1500 hour rule is the first step.

The 1500 number maybe just a number to us all but it represents a very big challenge to the people that will be enforcing it. Money talks, and it controls. The FAA has already been backtracking because they can't prove that 1500 would have prevented another colgan crash. Most importantly because in fact the accident crew did both have 1500.

Airline labor concept has nothing to do with 1500 hours or 250 hours. And just like the FAA only has two pages in the regs about SICs, the companies in general do not see and treat them with PIC capacity despite what they tell you in ground school. So, it's all about supply and demand and even with 1500 all they would do add signing bonuses and non monetary benefits to get you in. The last few years have not been normal and it was due to the paper economy where we all saw that things were too good to be true. We won't see any 250 hour hires for a very long time, maybe after 2012 or even beyond.
 
He still isn't going to have that experience in icing in a Dash-8.

He still could be sitting next to a newly minted captain with maybe one or two winters under his belt, or none at all. and none as captain.

If we didn't have these jacked up regional feed companies the new FO would be sitting next to the steely eyed captain with gobs of experience.

We don't do it the right way though, so airplanes will continue to fall out of the sky, and the public will want heads to roll.
 
If that is all you are experiencing, then I feel bad for you. Not saying you have to experience icing, but please go out and make PIC decisions. Have an alternator failure, and make a decision. Learn what weather is and does.

Don't rely on your Captain to babysit you. Be a productive member of the team. That is all anybody is asking...

Well said, I agree 100%.

1500 may not get you severe icing or a hydraulic failure in a 172. It will give you a multitude of experiences that will sharpen your skills, and heighten your situational awareness.
 
You flew with Boris?

Naw, I flew a trip with a guy who spent hours over the Atlantic talking about how there are mind control chemicals in milk and how he only feeds his children raw, non-pasteurized milk because he didn't want to government to control his progeny.

Then we were out walking around Rome getting an awesome walking tour by a flight attendant who moonlights doing youth tours during his summers and "No... No... that's incorrect... The ruins Roman Empire is just a façade for the Illuminati and the Freemasons that truly controlled the world and always will..."

Or taking my 81mg aspirin, as suggested by my AME, to help fight blood clotting and lordy lordy, here comes the lecture about how the "Pharms" have gotten to me and "...how do I really know what's in aspirin!"
 
Naw, I flew a trip with a guy who spent hours over the Atlantic talking about how there are mind control chemicals in milk and how he only feeds his children raw, non-pasteurized milk because he didn't want to government to control his progeny.

Then we were out walking around Rome getting an awesome walking tour by a flight attendant who moonlights doing youth tours during his summers and "No... No... that's incorrect... The ruins Roman Empire is just a façade for the Illuminati and the Freemasons that truly controlled the world and always will..."

Or taking my 81mg aspirin, as suggested by my AME, to help fight blood clotting and lordy lordy, here comes the lecture about how the "Pharms" have gotten to me and "...how do I really know what's in aspirin!"

Sounds like Jessie the Body/Governor Ventura.....Mind Control and Thermite Paint!
 
He was certainly one of those guys that's going to have a myocardial infarction worrying about red food coloring in an M&M.
 
Well said, I agree 100%.

1500 may not get you severe icing or a hydraulic failure in a 172. It will give you a multitude of experiences that will sharpen your skills, and heighten your situational awareness.

Bingo. It's the ole "1000 hours or 1 hour 1000 times" thing. If you never leave the pattern or within 30-50 nm of your home airport, you're looking at the second one. There's no way for the FAA to legislate you can't get a job until you've had X number of emergencies, etc, etc. To get that, you'd have guys breaking airplanes on purpose anyway. But what 1500 DOES do is play the law of averages. If you do a variety of things for 1500 hours (other than tooling around the pattern and flying VFR all the time), odds are good you're gonna see SOMETHING. Take a REALLY long x-country (like GKY-SDL and back), and you're likely to see several things you haven't see before. You may not see anything, but you're more likely to than doing stalls and steep turns all the time. The trick for instructors is you have to go out and talk to people to try to find those rare side jobs that get you the experience.
 
What does that mean?

*edit* I googled it. Does it really just mean CPL+IR+ATP written? Once you have your CPL and IR, $300 + an afternoon at ATP will get you the rest.

And the other definition says CPL+IR+ATP Written+ATP checkride, and your ATP is "frozen" until you meet the experience requirements.

OK wth...if the internets are always right, and the internets says 2 different thing...I'm seriously starting to doubt that everything I read online is true.

I dont know how a frozen ATP would work in the land of FAA. But in JAA land:

The "frozen ATPL" is a phrase used, informally, in JAR states (and
especially the UK) to mean a Commercial pilot with instrument rating
that has the ATPL exams passed but does not yet qualify for the ATPL
due to lack of flight time.

Commonly first officers flying under JAA regulations have what is
known as a ?frozen ATPL?. Once their flight time is then built up with
an airline, they take an ATPL skills check to be issued with the full
ATPL.

The hours required for a full JAA ATPL are:
Total Time 1500 hrs, to include:
500hrs pilot in a Multi-crew aircraft
250 Hrs P1 (or 100 P1C and 150 P1u/s)
200 Hrs cross country
75 hrs Instrument flight
100 hrs Night

The JAA ATPL Exams include something like 14 exams. They require about a year worth of study to take. They are extremely difficult. And you wont be hired as an FO without a frozen ATPL. Technically they could hire you at commercial level, but why would they risk that when it comes time to upgrade, you havent passed your exams.
 
Naw, I flew a trip with a guy who spent hours over the Atlantic talking about how there are mind control chemicals in milk and how he only feeds his children raw, non-pasteurized milk because he didn't want to government to control his progeny.

Then we were out walking around Rome getting an awesome walking tour by a flight attendant who moonlights doing youth tours during his summers and "No... No... that's incorrect... The ruins Roman Empire is just a façade for the Illuminati and the Freemasons that truly controlled the world and always will..."

Or taking my 81mg aspirin, as suggested by my AME, to help fight blood clotting and lordy lordy, here comes the lecture about how the "Pharms" have gotten to me and "...how do I really know what's in aspirin!"

Well, fiber optics did in fact come from reverse-engineered spacecraft captured at both Roswell and Dulce, NM; as well as Williams and Snowflake, AZ.
 
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