Article: FAA won't back 1500 hour requirement

Firebird2XC said:
I think that the training requirements, the concept of requiring higher time first time 121 pilots, and pilot fatigue are not really interconnected.

While they certainly all influence the operation as a whole, you can't fix them all by changing any one specific instance.

Training requirements need a fresh look- some of them are outdated and somewhat inadequate. Others aren't really that true-to-life.

Pilot fatigue largely deals with schedule composition and an unwillingness of air carriers (passenger and otherwise) to acknowledge that burning pilots at both ends is not acceptable. Sheer survival instinct is probably the last safeguard in the cockpit- it's the sheer will to live that enables some to endure inspite of fatiguing schedules. To succumb to fatigue is tantamount to suicide in this profession.

As for the 1500 hour concept- it's clear that somebody in the business is pulling the FAA's strings. There's nothing good about that at all.

Ultimately, 1500 hours has no bearing on what the pilot did to gain it. It simply weeds out those that were spoon-fed through the initial training process.

Sure, you might still get someone who had a CFI hold their hand for that long, but it's far, far, less likely that the current state of things.

The 1500 hour is valid and necessary. We need a stable foundation to base our pilot labor pool upon. It's not the skill set which a pilot builds a safe flight on- it's just the foundation.

A house cannot stand without the foundation for very long, regardless.
Click to expand...

:clap:+1

aloft said:
Nor is the issue of flight time solely about Colgan 3407. It's about the 250 TT wonders hired by the bottom feeders in the last hiring wave. Companies should not even have the OPTION of hiring someone with so little experience. Lowering the hiring mins has been the industry norm when the number of applicants dwindles. It SHOULD be improving pay/work rules to attract qualified applicants who are applying elsewhere. There is never an actual shortage of qualified pilots, only a shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for substandard wages.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? Wall Street comes right out and admits they need to pay large bonuses to attract and retain talent, why don't the airlines do the same? Because airline management thinks pilots are little more than trained monkeys. How do we change this perception? We can start by self-policing. Maybe that means cracking down on the gel-spiked, iPod-wearing, backpack-toting pilots and insisting that they start looking and acting like professionals instead of kids playing dress-up. Maybe it means cracking down on cockpit graffiti/porn. I don't know. What does professionalism in the cockpit mean to you?
Click to expand...

:rawk:+2

I have nothing else to say, these two sum it up pretty darn well
 
Socal321 said:
The 1500 number maybe just a number to us all but it represents a very big challenge to the people that will be enforcing it. Money talks, and it controls. The FAA has already been backtracking because they can't prove that 1500 would have prevented another colgan crash. Most importantly because in fact the accident crew did both have 1500.

Airline labor concept has nothing to do with 1500 hours or 250 hours. And just like the FAA only has two pages in the regs about SICs, the companies in general do not see and treat them with PIC capacity despite what they tell you in ground school. So, it's all about supply and demand and even with 1500 all they would do add signing bonuses and non monetary benefits to get you in. The last few years have not been normal and it was due to the paper economy where we all saw that things were too good to be true. We won't see any 250 hour hires for a very long time, maybe after 2012 or even beyond.
Click to expand...


Just require that SIC applicants show logbooks at their new-hire checkrides.

Done. THAT simple.

As for signing bonuses and the like, monetary compensation for new hires are regulated by Union contracts. There have been attempts to do just that- the Unions blocked them.

It's not always as complicated as it seems.
 
Socal321 said:
The FAA has already been backtracking because they can't prove that 1500 would have prevented another colgan crash. Most importantly because in fact the accident crew did both have 1500.
Click to expand...

those that think HR 3371 is the magic pill, seem to have the inane ability to continue overlooking this fact.
 
Nigel Croker said:
those that think HR 3371 is the magic pill, seem to have the inane ability to continue overlooking this fact.
Click to expand...

Personally I think that "this fact" is not germaine to the question of regional airline safety in the larger scheme. It may have been a catalyst for the upcoming changes, but it is not the justification for them.
 
IMO most of the people that are lobbying are the 1500 hour bill are not interested in safety at all. They think that the bill will magically increase our pay and work rules. The problem is it wont...

Ive flown with several CAPTAINS that have over 5000 hours and are complete knuckleheads. Hours do not equal a safer pilot, better training does. Increasing the minimum time to 1500 hours will do nothing except increase the pocketbooks of pay to play operaters like Gulfstream.

What will increase our pay? Nothing, short of stopping people from taking jobs for subpar pay. 18k a year is NOT an acceptable starting salary for a pilot, not even a 250 hour pilot or even an instructor. Setting a minimum wage for pilots is also not an acceptable plan. Part time workers at McDonalds should not be making more money than an Airline Pilot.

Only a shortage of pilots will bring our pay up...
 
3enginejock said:
Ive flown with several CAPTAINS that have over 5000 hours and are complete knuckleheads. Hours do not equal a safer pilot, better training does.
Click to expand...

I suppose it's occurred to you that they survived most of those 5000 hours without you to save them from their idiocy. How do you imagine that happened?

Only a shortage of pilots will bring our pay up...
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's time to start assassinating pilots. Think "Watership Down" or maybe "Soylent Green". It's the only way...
 
Not sure if that was a jab at me Boris or what. But my point was getting to 5000 hours isnt difficult if you have a flying job nor does it mean you are a better pilot.

I never said I was the best pilot ever (I am but thats not the point:)). I was pointing out that having a ton of hours doesnt make you a good pilot. I think everyone has flown with their share of bonehead pilots, high time and low time.

I am also not saying that 250 hour wonders should be in the right seat of airliners with 50+ pax on board. My point is setting the minimums to 1500 doesnt solve what most on here are looking for.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I suppose it's occurred to you that they survived most of those 5000 hours without you to save them from their idiocy. How do you imagine that happened?
Click to expand...

Well...if there's always someone there to save them from their idiocy...everyone lives until the other person isn't on the ball.
 
3enginejock said:
I am also not saying that 250 hour wonders should be in the right seat of airliners with 50+ pax on board. My point is setting the minimums to 1500 doesnt solve what most on here are looking for.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone thinks any of these proposals are the silver bullet to prevent all future accidents but they are a step in the right direction. Higher level of experience to enter, better training and checking, more rest and less duty hours all help to make a safer industry. I am scratching my head trying to figure out why any pilot would be against this besides the 17yo SJS kid who wants to fly jets at 250hrs.
 
I wish "national" would bring the love affair with Babbitt to a quick close because he's not doing all that great.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I suppose it's occurred to you that they survived most of those 5000 hours without you to save them from their idiocy. How do you imagine that happened?



Exactly. It's time to start assassinating pilots. Think "Watership Down" or maybe "Soylent Green". It's the only way...
Click to expand...

Lol, I used to fly with some captains that had 20,000TT plus when I had 500hrs, and at the time I was presumptuous enough to think, "these guys suck! I can't believe this." Then I saw them in action later when the poop hit the fan, so to speak, and my opinion was altered remarkably. Its very very easy to criticize from the right seat. Its very very easy to think, "man, if I was captain, no way would I do it that way," turns out, its not nearly as easy to be PIC. There's a lot going on, something that may look like a stupid move, may in fact be because a) you don't care enough/ are too busy to correct whatever deviation at the time being and are more intent on flying the airplane, or b) you're already three steps ahead of the guy next to you and are positioning yourself a little bit better to get ahead.

Flying for some of those guys was more natural to them than breathing. No, hours don't give you a free pass to make mistakes, but honestly, hours give you two things, perspective, and the ability to prioritize. The 500hr FO looks out the window, and see the the world infront of him (the next five minutes, 15 miles, or whatever is required to stay "ahead" of the airplane, if that), the 5000hr captain has the entire flight in mind, they're thinking about decisions they made, decisions they will make, and decisions that they could potentially make. They think not only about the next decision, but the next possible list of decisions. Give the guy a break.

EDIT: PIC time is what matters, that's where you learn. When you spend 4000hrs in the right seat, then upgrade (and I've known a few people who've done this) you're lack of command ability shows.
 
subpilot said:
. I am scratching my head trying to figure out why any pilot would be against this besides the 17yo SJS kid who wants to fly jets at 250hrs.
Click to expand...

There are others like them because some of us do not want the inevitable gobernment intervention messing up everything. Like all things they start out with good intentions, next thing you know we find ourselves having to get permission from the FAA to board an airplane each trip because someone forgot how to do recover from a stall.
 
ppragman said:
Lol, I used to fly with some captains that had 20,000TT plus when I had 500hrs, and at the time I was presumptuous enough to think, "these guys suck! I can't believe this." Then I saw them in action later when the poop hit the fan, so to speak, and my opinion was altered remarkably. Its very very easy to criticize from the right seat. Its very very easy to think, "man, if I was captain, no way would I do it that way," turns out, its not nearly as easy to be PIC. There's a lot going on, something that may look like a stupid move, may in fact be because a) you don't care enough/ are too busy to correct whatever deviation at the time being and are more intent on flying the airplane, or b) you're already three steps ahead of the guy next to you and are positioning yourself a little bit better to get ahead.

.
Click to expand...

I agree. At 500 hours you have no experience to even be judging the guy, unless he's breaking regs. I was talking with a CA that upgraded at about 1900 hours and he was telling me that on the right seat you are just focused on doing the flows, flying the airplane and staying ahead of it the next 100 miles. But when you move the to left seat, you have more time to think about the actual flight. It's very true. I've had to sit left seat only a few times and this was in a sim, to simulate an actual flight from gate to gat. They give you the paperwork, tell you you're the CA you make all the announcements briefings, decision, the FO is to your right looking at you, the FAs in the back depending on you. It was overwhelming and this was just in a simulator. After that flight you form a new respect for the CA. Unless you actually sit on that seat, you will never know the responsibility, even if you're 3 feet away to the right.
 
3enginejock said:
Not sure if that was a jab at me Boris or what. But my point was getting to 5000 hours isnt difficult if you have a flying job nor does it mean you are a better pilot.
Click to expand...


Hmm. Dodging thunderstorms, shooting a CAT II ILS to minimums and having to run fuel computations to an unlisted alternate because our filed one suddenly went south isn't "difficult?" Just because you get a flying job doesn't mean the hours starting clocking over like a slot machine on steroids. I wouldn't say getting the time "isn't difficult." You're gonna get the experience in those hours, or you will if you're paying attention and involved in the process. I see too many FOs that are warming their seats waiting for their seniority number to come up and upgrade.

I don't think 1500 hours is the "magic bullet." Never said it was. What it DOES is give you more opportunity to see things than 250 hours (a lot of which was spent with an instructor). 5000 hours gives you a better opportunity to see more things than 1500 and so on. Now, if the guy you were flying with was a tool bag, which kind of tool was he? Was he one that made bad decisions? Was he one that ignored input from his FO? Was he just totally clueless? Or was he just a jerk? I've flown with CAs (and FOs) that didn't know the front end of the plane from the back, and I've flown with some that flew well but made bad decisions. I've also flown with some complete a-holes, but they knew what they were doing.

Like I said earlier, you can't legislate what experiences people get. You can ATTEMPT to legislate training at the airline level, but some of these airlines will come up with deep pockets when that bill hits the Senate/House floor. The only other thing we've got is setting an hour minimum that averages out to a decent number of experiences. Some guys may get lucky (or unlucky) and see a lot in 250-300 hours. Some may not see anything until 1500-2000-3000 hours. Like I said before, law of averages says the guy with 250 hours is gonna see a lot less and have fewer "character building" experiences in the airplane as the guy with 6 times that much time.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I wish "national" would bring the love affair with Babbitt to a quick close because he's not doing all that great.
Click to expand...

I told everyone a long time ago that he was a worthless backstabber, but few people listened to me. In any case, he is better than most of the alternatives. I just wish Duane would have gotten it instead.
 
I'm not a big Woerth fan but he'd have been better than "The Duke" as he liked to be called when I was at SYX.

Just wait until your buddy upstairs goes to National. That's going to be a "treat".
 
3enginejock said:
IMO most of the people that are lobbying are the 1500 hour bill are not interested in safety at all. They think that the bill will magically increase our pay and work rules. The problem is it wont...

Ive flown with several CAPTAINS that have over 5000 hours and are complete knuckleheads. Hours do not equal a safer pilot, better training does. Increasing the minimum time to 1500 hours will do nothing except increase the pocketbooks of pay to play operaters like Gulfstream.

What will increase our pay? Nothing, short of stopping people from taking jobs for subpar pay. 18k a year is NOT an acceptable starting salary for a pilot, not even a 250 hour pilot or even an instructor. Setting a minimum wage for pilots is also not an acceptable plan. Part time workers at McDonalds should not be making more money than an Airline Pilot.

Only a shortage of pilots will bring our pay up...
Click to expand...


Yep.. only a shortage of pilots.

All the things above are products of either government legislation or collective bargaining.

The 1500 rule returns the airline pilot position to a point where you aspire to, not that you demand when you graduate some $100,000 puppy mill.

It's not a magic bullet.. but it is the first step.
 
I disagree with you Fire.

First of all why 1500 hours? Why not 2000, or 5000. You can only learn so much outside of a job. Like I said before this law if it passes will only pad the pocket books of places like Gulfstream because people will just buy their way to 1500. Training is where its at not hours. Weed people out by increasing our standards in general. Make becoming a pilot a bit more challenging.

You want safer pilots? Train them better, increase the difficulty of the knowledge tests for one. Dont hand out a book with every possible question and the answers in it. Am I the only one that thinks our current FAA written exams are a joke? Why even have them... Its like the teacher handing you all the questions of a final exam along with the correct answers to it and giving you as much time as you want to study it. Of course your going to pass with flying colors.

This wont create a shortage. If you remember before Spring/Summer 2008 regionals didnt hire people with 250 hours, not usually atleast. 1000+ was the norm with a bit of multi. You didnt see regional FO's getting paid more then did you? This 250 hour wonder thing pretty much ended by the end of summer 2008, and its looking to return to the 1000+ hour minimums to fly a regional. And I can without a doubt say that pilot pay will most likely not increase.

The main reason we are paid so low is because their are thousands of pilots out there that want your job no matter how bad you might think your job is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top