Article: FAA won't back 1500 hour requirement

[Boris Badenov]

The thing about experience is every 10,000 hour pilot has been a 1,000 hour pilot. No 1,000 hour pilot has been a 10,000 hour pilot. The amount of two-step done around here to avoid the obvious fact that doing something a lot makes you better at it is hilarious. Take your ego out of it and remember when you were 16, just dead certain that not only were as good a driver as your Dad, you were probably better due to (whatever, better reflexes, more recent training, the fact that car=girls, etc). Were you a better driver than dear old Dad? Seriously? You don't have to set the world on fire right this very second, kids. The seats aren't removed from the aircraft when someone retires.

 

[gtpilot]

The 1500 hour is valid and necessary. We need a stable foundation to base our pilot labor pool upon. It's not the skill set which a pilot builds a safe flight on- it's just the foundation.

Not to be picky, but my younger brother has less than 1500 hours and is a highly skilled jet pilot, likely a better stick than any regional pilot. At less than 200 hours he was flying multi million dollar jet airplanes. Yes, he is military and the point is with a superior training program and selection process, the 1500 hour rule is irrelevant!

Edit: just had to add I don't consider Riddle, DCA or FSA superior training programs.

 

[Baronman]

Not to be picky, but my younger brother has less than 1500 hours and is a highly skilled jet pilot, likely a better stick than any regional pilot. At less than 200 hours he was flying multi million dollar jet airplanes. Yes, he is military and the point is with a superior training program and selection process, the 1500 hour rule is irrelevant!

Edit: just had to add I don't consider Riddle, DCA or FSA superior training programs.

Hate to burst your bubble. But stick and rudder skills are not huge factors in airline flying.
Pretty much everyone can put the plane where it needs to be, some better than others.

Don't worry for your brother though, military guys will always be taken care of.

 

[3enginejock]

You heard it here first!

 

[Stone Cold]

Hate to burst your bubble. But stick and rudder skills are not huge factors in airline flying.
Pretty much everyone can put the plane where it needs to be, some better than others.

I would say the accident this bill was started by has everything to do with stick and rudder skills. It was an airline accident too...

 

[LoadMasterC141]

:yeahthat:

Here I go :deadhorse: again, but I still don't believe 1500 hrs and an ATP license is going to solve everything, and it seems a bit high to me. Having to get the ATP is going to leave alot of young people out of the cockpit even when they have 1500 hours; alot of those young people would do fine.

I have always thought 250 is too low, but 1500 is too high.

Changes in work/rest rules would be the most effective change IMO. But I am just someone looking from the outside in.

 

[gtpilot]

Hate to burst your bubble. But stick and rudder skills are not huge factors in airline flying.
Pretty much everyone can put the plane where it needs to be, some better than others.

Don't worry for your brother though, military guys will always be taken care of.

Ah, my bubble bursts regularly. What I was trying to emphasize is that our military pilots receive superior training and function very well with low total times.

Yeah, I'm sure my brother could get an airline job easily, but he's a bit arrogant about it and doesn't see the need to do multi-engine add ons.

 

[BobDDuck]

Ah, my bubble bursts regularly. What I was trying to emphasize is that our military pilots receive superior training and function very well with low total times.

I'd posit it's all about the selection and not about the training. If your brother (who made it through however many levels of selection to get into a military jet) was given the same training that a 500 hour newbie was given at a Regional, he'd come out as the most proficient and competent pilot of the class, would breeze through IOE, and after adapting the the plane if a few hundred hours, he'd be a huge asset to the captains he was flying with. Give him 1000 hours to see the basics of airline ops and become very familiar with the plane (because unlike some FOs, he'd actually be paying attention in the right seat and thinking... "what would I do if I were captain in this situation), he'd breeze through upgrade and be a competent and safe captain.

Sure, training is VERY important, but the fact of the matter is that some people are just not cut out to be pilots, let alone pilots of fast moving 50 to 250 seat jets (or tprops). Unfortunately, with enough money, pretty much anybody can get their ratings and meet the min qualifications and get hired. And right now, there is nothing stopping regionals from doing just that.

 

[kellwolf]

The seats aren't removed from the aircraft when someone retires.

Speak for yourself. I'm taking mine with me and making it a recliner!

 

[3enginejock]

I would say the accident this bill was started by has everything to do with stick and rudder skills. It was an airline accident too...

Actually the accident this bill was started by was caused by a captain and FO who were not paying attention to their instruments for whatever reason, and then somehow forgot something you learn in Private Pilot 101 which is how to recover from a stall.

Really has nothing to do with stick and rudder skills. Has more to due with lack of training and possibly fatigue.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Actually the accident this bill was started by was caused by a captain and FO who were not paying attention to their instruments for whatever reason, and then somehow forgot something you learn in Private Pilot 101 which is how to recover from a stall.

Really has nothing to do with stick and rudder skills. Has more to due with lack of training and possibly fatigue.

I believe it's been discussed, he was trained differently and that was to power out of the stall.

 

[Socal321]

Actually the accident this bill was started by was caused by a captain and FO who were not paying attention to their instruments for whatever reason, and then somehow forgot something you learn in Private Pilot 101 which is how to recover from a stall.

Really has nothing to do with stick and rudder skills. Has more to due with lack of training and possibly fatigue.

I agree, but I don't know about fatigue, the CA, the one that was flying, sounded up beat in the flight. From their conversations it sounded like what it usually does when a crew is flying their final flight of the day or trip. The CA lost the scan for whatever reason just enough to stall the airplane, it's just an accident. To me the Pinnacle 410 and Comair crashes were way more severe, but their interested lasted only a few weeks. The CVR recording of the FO did not help though.

 

[OldTownPilot]

I believe it's been discussed, he was trained differently and that was to power out of the stall.

Thing is he didn't do that either.

 

[Socal321]

I believe it's been discussed, he was trained differently and that was to power out of the stall.

You know, at first I was going to disagree with you. But at the same time I'm having flashbacks of what I've seen people do in an airline simulator. I do belive that they knew how to get out of a stall but who knows what they were thinking.

 

[Socal321]

Thing is he didn't do that either.

I think so. You can actually power out of stall in an airliner but you can't do it with a 20 degree pitch up.

 

[kellwolf]

I think so. You can actually power out of stall in an airliner but you can't do it with a 20 degree pitch up.

If I remember correctly, throttles weren't full forward, either, though.

 

[Socal321]

If I remember correctly, throttles weren't full forward, either, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I 2 min mark

Haven't seen it in a long time but forgot how bad of a job he did. Wow, everything you're not supposed to do he did.

 

[kellwolf]

I believe it's been discussed, he was trained differently and that was to power out of the stall.

We were trained, at first, to do this in the CRJ. Our big thing, thanks to 3701, was stalls are different at high altitude than at 10K in the sim. After 3407, they've ditched our stall profiles and gone to a more "real world" training scenario of base to final, spoilers out, flaps 30, and 61% N1. Recover at the shaker. No more "power out and don't lose more than 100 ft" stuff. They're even telling us to slightly lower the nose now.

 

[jynxyjoe]

We were trained, at first, to do this in the CRJ. Our big thing, thanks to 3701, was stalls are different at high altitude than at 10K in the sim. After 3407, they've ditched our stall profiles and gone to a more "real world" training scenario of base to final, spoilers out, flaps 30, and 61% N1. Recover at the shaker. No more "power out and don't lose more than 100 ft" stuff. They're even telling us to slightly lower the nose now.

Yeah, Mesaba never got much into the "power out" thing. We do to the pusher every time too now as a result of Colgan.

Anyway, I've already hijacked this into a Colgan thread so on with the 1500 hour thing.

 

[wheelsup]

.... Depends who you ask. I think you mean to say "hired" as low timers, since the law was in reference to hiring practices. Marvin wasn't hired with much. Rebecca had a whole 1700 right?

Anyway, I don't think a total of 6k hours between the two pilots at the time of the crash is what they are trying to prevent. Thus the 1.5k hour requirement for hiring.

So basically what you are saying is this new regulation, which is designed to prevent accidents from the Coglan crash from ever happening again, would have in fact not prevented this accident or similar from happening due to the fact that both pilots were in fact over 1500 TT.

Intersting.

I flew with many F/O's who when combined had under 5000 TT, as I had around 3500 TT. And my buddy only had 2500 TT when upgrading so I'm sure his "TT in the cockpit" total was under 3000 TT in some cases.

Yet the fact of the matter is no amount of time in that logbook will prevent an aircraft from stalling when you pull the thrust levels back to idle and don't look at the airspeed ever again.