Army retires the Kiowa Warrior

[Low_Level_Hell]

http://www.fayobserver.com/military...cle_14fde74e-884e-5537-b12c-22738d282b88.html

Long story short, with the return of 1-17 CAV to Fort Brag from a 9 month rotation to Korea, the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior is no longer flying for the US Army.

The thing was underpowered, had only one engine, a dated sensor, limited payload, not very much station time, and a weapon sighting system that consisted of a grease mark on the windshield. Really it should have went to the scrap heap decades ago. The only thing the KW really had going for it were the crazy bastards who flew the thing who wouldn't think twice about charging into battle to shoot the bad dudes in the face... literally with their M4s hanging out the door. I don't think you could find a group of aviators in the military that were so synchronized and dedicated to the troops on the ground.

Ultimately the Army decided to forgo their replacement aircraft (see ARH and Comanche) and give the scout/reconnaissance mission to AH64s integrated with UAVs. While those aircraft have there own strengths, I don't think they can replace presence and connection to the ground force that the KW provided.

 

[Low&Slow]

We replaced our Kiowas with LUH-72 Lakotas. It's a militarized version of the Eurocopter EC145.

 

[deadstick]

Yea...now they want to do the Cav mission with Apaches and drones. Good luck with that.

Final flight at Ft Bragg:

 

[milleR]

Yea...now they want to do the Cav mission with Apaches and drones. Good luck with that.

Final flight at Ft Bragg:

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I hear "Ride of the Valkeries" playing in the background.

 

[deadstick]

Park the 58's and ensure job security for the maintainers. If they're turning wrenches all the time, who's going to rake and paint the rocks?

 

[tattooguy21]

Just a heads up, this is all old news. What I mean is, the army announced in 2012-13 that it was going to do this. All of us just snickered thinking, "uh huh, sure." And if, IF they did do it, then it would take about a decade. Fast forward to the end of 2013, 1-6 cav out of Riley is redeployed FROM THEATER (warzone) and done. It sent shock waves throughout the army that this wasn't the usual top level blustery BS. Then the unofficial official retention/promotion boards started and Kiowa guys started dropping like flys.

I've been doing this a while guys, and I'd never seen something so big implemented so fast in the military.

 

[Lawman]

Just a heads up, this is all old news. What I mean is, the army announced in 2012-13 that it was going to do this. All of us just snickered thinking, "uh huh, sure." And if, IF they did do it, then it would take about a decade. Fast forward to the end of 2013, 1-6 cav out of Riley is redeployed FROM THEATER (warzone) and done. It sent shock waves throughout the army that this wasn't the usual top level blustery BS. Then the unofficial official retention/promotion boards started and Kiowa guys started dropping like flys.

I've been doing this a while guys, and I'd never seen something so big implemented so fast in the military.

What Big Army did to the 58 community was some dirty rotten BS as well.

Everywhere senior staff were telling everybody not to worry for years. Then suddenly there are secret closed door order of merit lists being made. Guys deploying to Korea/Centcom not having any idea if they needed to be working on their Resume's while W4/5s are telling them it'll be ok on one hand and typing to their branch manager about their course date for 64/60/47s because they know what's coming.

Just some dirty BS.


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[tattooguy21]

What Big Army did to the 58 community was some dirty rotten BS as well.

Everywhere senior staff were telling everybody not to worry for years. Then suddenly there are secret closed door order of merit lists being made. Guys deploying to Korea/Centcom not having any idea if they needed to be working on their Resume's while W4/5s are telling them it'll be ok on one hand and typing to their branch manager about their course date for 64/60/47s because they know what's coming.

Just some dirty BS.


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All true. I should have put that in the official statement. And it doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure, had they offered, many of those guys would filled the shortages in other airframes (well, the one that specifically needs it anyways.)

 

[Lawman]

All true. I should have put that in the official statement. And it doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure, had they offered, many of those guys would filled the shortages in other airframes (well, the one that specifically needs it anyways.)

Oh plenty of them are filling shortages, the problem was the bean counters knew we didn't have the excess squeeze to pump the hundreds of Kiowa guys through AQC to another aircraft in a timely manner. They would have gotten to their new community after a year or two of limbo with the OERs that said "came to work on time" and been fodder for promotion boards.

It was simply easier for the Army to flat out lie to them because if you had told guys ahead of time they weren't gonna be needed in 18-24 months they would have stopped pulling the cart for the organization that showed it's cards on its total GaF.


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[MikeD]

I took these pics just the other week.

 

[MikeD]

All 4 of my CSAR missions Iraq where I was scrambled out of Kirkuk as a Sandy, were all for OH-58Ds. One crashed in bad WX, two had wire/cable strikes on rivers, and one was shot down. We had next to nothing with regards to CSAR going on, then these in the span of a month's time.

 

[Lawman]

All 4 of my CSAR missions Iraq where I was scrambled out of Kirkuk as a Sandy, were all for OH-58Ds. One crashed in bad WX, two had wire/cable strikes on rivers, and one was shot down. We had next to nothing with regards to CSAR going on, then these in the span of a month's time.

They've always lead the Army's loss rates due to a combination of sorties flown and exposure to risk.

The sensor was crap which caused them to fly under the typical safe altitudes and standoff everybody else enjoyed. You could look at a Safire tracker and it would be a slant of something like 2/1/1/15 for the four aircraft in a brigade, and nobody had to guess which one the 58 was. Combine that with only having one engine and you are just asking for it.

They hung it all out there though for what they did. The old joke of "target is marked by burning 58" rang a lot more true than people wanted to admit though. Arming them was probably the worst thing we did because it gave a bunch of recon guys delusions of being a gunship when really they had just enough firepower to get themselves in real trouble.

 

[killbilly]

The sensor was crap which caused them to fly under the typical safe altitudes and standoff everybody else enjoyed. You could look at a Safire tracker and it would be a slant of something like 2/1/1/15 for the four aircraft in a brigade, and nobody had to guess which one the 58 was. Combine that with only having one engine and you are just asking for it.

Can you translate this into terms I understand? I've always been a fan of Army helos and I'm following this discussion with interest, but you lost me here.

 

[Ian_J]

Can you translate this into terms I understand? I've always been a fan of Army helos and I'm following this discussion with interest, but you lost me here.

Number of surface to air incidents across different airframes in a brigade. The 15 in his example would show the 58s caught the bulk of it.

 

[MikeD]

We ever end up selling some of the birds to Croatia?

 

[Lawman]

We ever end up selling some of the birds to Croatia?

There are a bunch of deals in the works to sell them off.

Most of them are having to contend with the Leary amendment. I know that's what's been holding up a lot of the sales in SE Asia last time I was working there.

 

[deadstick]

Taiwan flies the 58D, right?

 

[deadstick]

I posted this awhile ago, but I think it fits here, too.

 

[deadstick]

Just looking at @MikeD 's missions, 1 of 4 could have been due to the 58 being a single-engine helicopter. Twins crash just as easily as singles when they got IIMC, hit wires, or get their tail booms shot off. It's like the single/twin discussion in HEMS/HAA...whatever it's called, now.

If they had quit farting around and trying to make a 407 a mini 64, the simple ARH would have been a great asset.

 

[bkey79]

Those Kiowa guys would scare the poo outta me when they would buzz us in the Tower at Bagram! Seriously could've given them a high five from the catwalk! We would all laugh and duck at the same time!