Army retires the Kiowa Warrior

[Lawman]

Ebs and flows. Can then can't then can. Flew every Saturday for the past 2 months, around 3 classes each Saturday. Latest and greatest is there's no bubble of students on hold.

Just changed the entire flight training program (reduction of flying time) to get pilots to unit faster (enjoy that product.)

With all this, Rucker can't realistically produce the number of apache pilots to fill the 4 battalions we're short. Especially with the American WOs starting the rotary transition program. I can personally speak to two literal companies in the past 45 days where 7 apache guys (per company) dropped their paperwork.

Yeah the 18-01 moving cycle info just got pushed out to give guidance on where you can go.

Every unit that you can't move to if you're an Echo guy, which is all they want to let us do (CAB to CAB, no TDA assignments) is deploying somewhere in the next 18 months.

So the options are to move immediately following deployment, be pressured into waiving dwell to go on a deployment, and go through all the BS it takes to build a new unit to deploy....instead of just homesteading people and not deploying these undermanned in number only units they want to field.

Gee I wonder why people are getting out.

 

[tattooguy21]

Yeah the 18-01 moving cycle info just got pushed out to give guidance on where you can go.

Every unit that you can't move to if you're an Echo guy, which is all they want to let us do (CAB to CAB, no TDA assignments) is deploying somewhere in the next 18 months.

So the options are to move immediately following deployment, be pressured into waiving dwell to go on a deployment, and go through all the BS it takes to build a new unit to deploy....instead of just homesteading people and not deploying these undermanned in number only units they want to field.

Gee I wonder why people are getting out.

Should we even touch on the lack of bonus?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[Lawman]

Should we even touch on the lack of bonus?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

The bonus is only a bucket of water to throw on a house fire.

This will not be a problem solved by offering enough cash to buy a used Subaru to people who have options available now that it's not 2007's economy. 160th has had the bonus, same with SMU and others, they are hemorrhaging pilots as well.

The problem is the fact that the people trying to address the problem are the kinds of people that have spent their entire careers putting the Army first above family, above self, and they lack the perspective to figure out why nobody else did. If these West Point, ranger tabbed, geniuses can't even see that they are the 1 person out of 50 they originally commissioned with still wearing the uniform it's obvious they aren't going to figure out that 15 years of constant deployments with no relief is going to lead to an unsustainable cost.

-Stop moving people because we have to
-Stop minimally manning units, accept the fact it's better we have 8 full CABs and 4 placeholders than 12 where 70% of the people try to do the same work. That's how you never reset because your 1 deep guy working the job of 2 like an MTP says F this before you get help to him and all your in is a vicious circle.
-Pay to keep people, not just with bonuses but with education and services. The school payment disparity between RLOs and Warrants is ridiculous especially when we are the backbone of the aviation branch not staff Captains.
-MTOE more enlisted personnel in more specialized MOSs to battalions. I shouldn't need CW2s to be doing ALSE. Likewise stop using the Warrants as the labor force of the battalion.
-Make training meaningful and make it on cycles with specified down/reset time. I've spent 3 years constantly in the field/NTC because nobody is willing to have a calendar with white space on it. Work hard and play hard. That will restore Morale, not another speech on how we did a great job in a motor pool full of broken vehicles because we have no time to reset.

 

[tattooguy21]

The bonus is only a bucket of water to throw on a house fire.

.

This makes me laugh a little bit. I'm at 19 years, 13 in aviation, and my third year I heard someone make an impassioned plea like this to the General Cody at one of his last stops before retirement.

And I mean it's almost verbatim. At that point they had just put out the end of the Comanche, forwarding of those funds to equip mtads/pnvs and some other bells and whistles across the fleets (Mike and Fox for those other guys.) You can see what's come of it all nearly ten years later.

Same story, different decade brother.

 

[Ian_J]

The school payment disparity between RLOs and Warrants

What does this mean? School payment?

 

[Lawman]

What does this mean? School payment?

I had a warrant in my battalion ask how can we get in a Masters program since a lot of us are coming in with Bachelors degrees.

This was to an HRC briefing.... the Answer.... go to Experimental Test Pilot School. So essentially outside of TA (which is pennies that won't make a dent in a masters program) there is virtually no option for an advanced degree or some of the other broadening programs available to the RLO community. Well other than that extreme math intensive program that has all of a dozen people in it at a given time.

That goes a long way to keeping a lot of quality people who essentially have to walk away from the Army because getting that masters isn't something they can do concurrent with their career so they have to weigh on putting off that or getting out.

 

[Ian_J]

I had a warrant in my battalion ask how can we get in a Masters program since a lot of us are coming in with Bachelors degrees.

This was to an HRC briefing.... the Answer.... go to Experimental Test Pilot School. So essentially outside of TA (which is pennies that won't make a dent in a masters program) there is virtually no option for an advanced degree or some of the other broadening programs available to the RLO community. Well other than that extreme math intensive program that has all of a dozen people in it at a given time.

That goes a long way to keeping a lot of quality people who essentially have to walk away from the Army because getting that masters isn't something they can do concurrent with their career so they have to weigh on putting off that or getting out.

Ah - thanks.

 

[tattooguy21]

Ah - thanks.

Apache guys are NOT being released for any education based, professional based programs these days that I'm tracking except the xp program.

Qualified for that masters program? Doesn't matter. Want to aid for some big whig (see what I did there) in D.C. and have all right letters? Shouldn't have picked apaches. Lawman tells no lies

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[Lawman]

Apache guys are NOT being released for any education based, professional based programs these days that I'm tracking except the xp program.

Qualified for that masters program? Doesn't matter. Want to aid for some big whig (see what I did there) in D.C. and have all right letters? Shouldn't have picked apaches. Lawman tells no lies

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

That's where we are gonna find a new pit fall come time to make guys CW5 in about 4-8 years.

Suddenly all those dudes who have nothing but six years of "Battalion _____" on their ORB competing against 60 and 47 guys who have jobs at the JPRC, Joint assignments, WIASS tasters, or OCing or wherever are going to kill them. We will become disproportionate at the top as far as population representation and deal with a sudden loss of available W5s with attack backgrounds to fill all those important roles at TICM etc.

 

[tattooguy21]

That's where we are gonna find a new pit fall come time to make guys CW5 in about 4-8 years.

Suddenly all those dudes who have nothing but six years of "Battalion _____" on their ORB competing against 60 and 47 guys who have jobs at the JPRC, Joint assignments, WIASS tasters, or OCing or wherever are going to kill them. We will become disproportionate at the top as far as population representation and deal with a sudden loss of available W5s with attack backgrounds to fill all those important roles at TICM etc.

Disagree to a certain extent. The problem we got now is that guys at w5 in the ah64 that I know personally across the army with all the jobs/oers we were told growing up we needed that are being told at the 6 years time in grade mark "sorry, gotta make room for the new guys." Despite still flying, holding those important jobs and throwing down on hellacious oers. So if you were someone like me who had plans of doing 38 years (I know...I know), but the new reality is you'll be ushered out to keep the cycle moving. Never expected loyalty from the military, but this is pushing even the previous expectations into the realm of ridiculous.

 

[Lawman]

Disagree to a certain extent. The problem we got now is that guys at w5 in the ah64 that I know personally across the army with all the jobs/oers we were told growing up we needed that are being told at the 6 years time in grade mark "sorry, gotta make room for the new guys." Despite still flying, holding those important jobs and throwing down on hellacious oers. So if you were someone like me who had plans of doing 38 years (I know...I know), but the new reality is you'll be ushered out to keep the cycle moving. Never expected loyalty from the military, but this is pushing even the previous expectations into the realm of ridiculous.

I'm not talking about keeping W5's (SRP is looooong overdue). I'm saying because the Army doesn't do promotion groups based of community as far as warrant promotions we are going to be less competitive than our peers from other communities.

Every career path tracker talks about broadening and proving you can do the next job by gaining and having the skills for it. You don't get those skills by staying in a Battalion as a CW3/4 in eternity.

That's gonna lead to wide piles of year groups who make the W5 ring that are 60/47 heavy with the couple 64 guys that make the cut because we simply won't have the competitiveness those other promotion packets do. That's not even talking about the 2nd/3rd order effects of never sending attack guys to any of those jobs so within the community you don't have those people returning to spread knowledge of what they learned doing _____.

 

[tattooguy21]

I'm not talking about keeping W5's (SRP is looooong overdue). __.

Agreed regarding SRP, but as stated, it's gotten to the point note where there is nothing you can do right.

For the knowledge base, I'm still seeing chances in tcim, asdat, etc. But the other opportunities, true to term "broadening" assignments.....not so much.

 

[Lawman]

Agreed regarding SRP, but as stated, it's gotten to the point note where there is nothing you can do right.

For the knowledge base, I'm still seeing chances in tcim, asdat, etc. But the other opportunities, true to term "broadening" assignments.....not so much.

But that's like... a guy. ASDAT is 1 TDA CW3/4 who spends 3 years in the billet.

The fact I'm qualified for half a dozen non flying assignments or schools I'd actually get something and bring back to a Bn/Bde position but will never be allowed to go to is telling of the short sightedness of HRC.

The all mighty requirement is to disassemble a CAB coming off deployment, to force move those people to the CAB that is deploying to meet that 80% mark so we can pretend we have equality across the force. My unit is gutting its self when we get home... we just spent 18 months building it from the ground up. A whole bunch of people are being told they have the "opportunity" to go do the same thing at Bragg... on the other side of the country. Then do the same when they unit gets back from Korea/Iraq/Whatever in 26 months.

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

Rumor has it the AH64 bonus is going to target the more junior aviators thanks to sequestration limiting the amount of students they can move through Rucker. The Army knows that the old bozos like me already put up with 15 plus years of deployments and training and will stick it out to retirement anyway.

 

[deadstick]

@Low_Level_Hell There was an IP who would fail any 64 AQC student who mentioned the movie in your avatar.

 

[tattooguy21]

Rumor has it the AH64 bonus is going to target the more junior aviators thanks to sequestration limiting the amount of students they can move through Rucker. The Army knows that the old bozos like me already put up with 15 plus years of deployments and training and will stick it out to retirement anyway.

The idea is to definitely grab the post initial commitment guys and those at the ten year mark. The idea being "if we can keep them in long enough, all these great job opportunities outside will dry up. Then we gottem."

Sequestration isn't what's effecting Rucker/flight school....any more than it's effecting the other apache units. We simply don't have enough airfields, aircraft (worst • maintenance program ever), or instructors. They hire more doss and dacs all the time to close the gap on what they have now vs what they had just 3 years ago.

That's the other thing....students are picking the aircraft, holds down to about 3 weeks. So to a certain extent, they don't need to target the most junior guys. There's a steady pipeline of them.

 

[Bear]

stick it out to retirement

I served beyond 20, retired and moved on to other pursuits, the one benefit I have valued the most is TRICARE, this surely has given me a peace of mind, and has saved me BIG bucks. Enjoy whatever choices you make...
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34751.pdf In Summary. "The military retirement system is a government-funded, noncontributory, defined benefit system that has historically been viewed as a significant incentive in retaining a career military force. The system currently includes monthly compensation for qualified active and reserve retirees, disability benefits for those deemed medically unfit to serve, and a survivor annuity program for the eligible survivors of deceased retirees. The amount of compensation is dependent on time served, basic pay at retirement, and annual Cost-of-Living-Adjustments (COLAs). Military retirees are also entitled to nonmonetary benefits including exchange and commissary privileges, medical care through TRICARE, and access to Morale, Welfare and Recreation (MWR) facilities and programs. Currently, active component personnel are eligible for retirement or “vested” after completing 20 years of service (YOS) and have a choice between two options (High-Three or Career Status Bonus/Redux) based on career expectations and the individual’s financial situation. Reserve personnel are eligible for retirement after 20 years of creditable service based on a points system, but do not typically begin to draw retirement pay until age 60. A third category of retirement is disability retirement."

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

The idea is to definitely grab the post initial commitment guys and those at the ten year mark. The idea being "if we can keep them in long enough, all these great job opportunities outside will dry up. Then we gottem."

Sequestration isn't what's effecting Rucker/flight school....any more than it's effecting the other apache units. We simply don't have enough airfields, aircraft (worst *I don't have the education to emote without using a curse word* maintenance program ever), or instructors. They hire more doss and dacs all the time to close the gap on what they have now vs what they had just 3 years ago.

That's the other thing....students are picking the aircraft, holds down to about 3 weeks. So to a certain extent, they don't need to target the most junior guys. There's a steady pipeline of them.

I don't think its the great job opportunities that result in Army (helo) pilots getting out. I think its the self inflicted misery that Army Aviation likes to impose on itself, especially in the last five years. Since 2012-ish the demands on conventional ground forces have decreased resulting in increased focus on field training, as they put it, to the most demanding mode. Meaning lots of time away from home. While that may be ok for a ground BCT that only deploys every five years, all the field time for an Aviation Brigade that deploys every 20 months is straining. Especially when every BCT going to a field exercise wants Aviation to go along with them. So in the end you have Aviation going to the field more often and deploying more often than any other conventional force out there.

 

[tattooguy21]

I don't think its the great job opportunities that result in Army (helo) pilots getting out. I think its the self inflicted misery that Army Aviation likes to impose on itself, especially in the last five years. Since 2012-ish the demands on conventional ground forces have decreased resulting in increased focus on field training, as they put it, to the most demanding mode. Meaning lots of time away from home. While that may be ok for a ground BCT that only deploys every five years, all the field time for an Aviation Brigade that deploys every 20 months is straining. Especially when every BCT going to a field exercise wants Aviation to go along with them. So in the end you have Aviation going to the field more often and deploying more often than any other conventional force out there.

Three years ago I would have agreed with you regarding the job opportunities. Now? I've got three regional airlines hounding guys with over 750 hours (so literally any pilot who's deployed) for their rotary transition program.

LCT positions all over the globe, to include places like Honolulu, Fairbanks, and the higher paying overseas jobs. Contracting positions paying out over $200k with literally everything in day to day life included (housing, phone, food, car, insurance, WiFi, gasoline, insurance, etc), $100,800 of which is tax free if you follow the rules. (Yes, these numbers are correct and not hearsay).

Do a contracting job for 3 years and make in tax free income what you'd make in 9 years as a retired w3.

Yes, those other factors you mentioned are huge, but let's be honest. Many guys stuck around through the suck because quite frankly, what else were you gonna do? Fly aero med? Oil rigs? If it was aviation related the apache community was generally pretty limited.

Now, I can get better pay, perks, and depending on what I choose, better career opportunities out there with the skill set I've obtained.

 

[MikeD]

Regional airlines: the new Warrant Officer mafia....