Appalled...

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
I still have a very difficult time accepting what pilots make. It's an absolute insult. Starting salary for a regional jet FO should be $75K. Hell, I hire customer service representatives in my business with little or no technical or college level training and pay them $40K a year to start.

Some how, some way, this needs to change. Although militant sounding, a total walk off should be organized and executed by ALPA. I would support that in any way possible and I am not even an airline pilot anymore.
 
I still have a very difficult time accepting what pilots make. It's an absolute insult. Starting salary for a regional jet FO should be $75K. Hell, I hire customer service representatives in my business with little or no technical or college level training and pay them $40K a year to start.

Some how, some way, this needs to change. Although militant sounding, a total walk off should be organized and executed by ALPA. I would support that in any way possible and I am not even an airline pilot anymore.

Agree in theory, but not in practice.

It's never going to change so long as regional pilots have't a leg to stand on to negotiate with. And they won't, so long as there are Shiny Jet Syndrome wannabe's that are "willing to fly for food;" and CEOs know this. Want better conditions? Why should I, Mr CEO, provide it when I have a stack of resumes just waiting with guys willing to work for beans....or even pay me to work for me! Striking or walking out isn't going to solve the problem; pilots need to stop prostituting themselves out, or be willing to..just to get neat epaulets. All striking will do is shut down service and put everyone out of work, while Mr CEO gets his golden parachute, and the hordes of SJSers come in to get their hands on an RJ.......thus turning EVERY regional into a Freedom/Gulftream/[insert name here] operation.

Just like how I don't fault Gulfstream for the program they have; not one bit. IT wouldn't exist IF pilots weren't willing to do it. They're simply tapping a market......a sneaky/shady one albeit.....but apparently a lucrative one, of prostitute pilots with SJS.

I blame pilots overall. The regional CEOs are simply the opportunists.
 
Agreed.

I have always firmly believed pilots need a new approach to their business rather than blowing up big 10' rats at corporate offices and chanting catchy little sayings.
 
I agree with MikeD. We tease one another and make fun of "shiny jet syndrome" but the fact of the matter is that it is supply and demand. As long as there are a glut of young, low time pilots, willing to sell their souls for 1000 pic turbine, then the compensation for those few available pilot positions will remain low.
 
If I might play devil's advocate here, we all recognize that this is the problem.... however whenever someone suggests user fees or anything to increase the cost of GA flying they have a new hole torn in them.

Flying GA in america is cheaper than anywhere else in the world almost, which is weird because everything else is more expensive.

I don't really agree with user fees (except for business jets) but how else would we reduce the number of pilots available except for increase the cost of becoming one? I don't think we can go the AMA route and have limited numbers of pilots certified each year but that would be nice.
 
If I might play devil's advocate here, we all recognize that this is the problem.... however whenever someone suggests user fees or anything to increase the cost of GA flying they have a new hole torn in them.

Flying GA in america is cheaper than anywhere else in the world almost, which is weird because everything else is more expensive.

I don't really agree with user fees (except for business jets) but how else would we reduce the number of pilots available except for increase the cost of becoming one? I don't think we can go the AMA route and have limited numbers of pilots certified each year but that would be nice.

Many GA pilots have no desire to fly airliners. Don't assimilate GA flying with the wage problems professional pilots have. The only commonality is they both fly planes.
 
Every commercial pilot first has to fly GA, excepting military pilots. It wouldn't just help airline pilots, it would help all commercial pilots. Just sayin'.
 
Every commercial pilot first has to fly GA, excepting military pilots. It wouldn't just help airline pilots, it would help all commercial pilots. Just sayin'.

So GA pilots with no aspiration to ever fly for a living should sacrifice so that commercial pilots can make a better living? :confused:
 
I highly doubt a significant amount of negotiating capital is spent on improving conditions for a very small percentage of the pilot group that is still on probation. Supply and demand is the only way to stop it. IMO I think its improving slowly in that department since regional pilots don't pay for intial training and hotel expenses anymore like in the past.

Couple years ago Comair tried to match 1st and 2nd year pay during the hiring spree but the union denied it because they wanted increases for the other pilots as well. I'll try to find a link.
 
Couple years ago Comair tried to match 1st and 2nd year pay during the hiring spree but the union denied it because they wanted increases for the other pilots as well. I'll try to find a link.

I remember that.

PS Did you survive the F work at ASA?
 
I don't think that increasing the cost of an already expensive system is the answer. On the contrary I believe the answer lies in creating more stringent minimum requirements for hire in part 121, and to obtain an ATP.

I would propose at least FAR part 135 IMC requirements for the right seat under part 121, and increase the requirements for an ATP to at least 2500 TT and 250 ME.

I would also suggest they make the ATP written more challenging (think JAA).

Increasing the barriers to entry would "weed out" some of the SJS crowd and those who skated through flight school hoping for a 5 year run to the majors because they wanted big bucks and lots of days off. Reduce the total number of new pilots in the system, and wages will improve.
 
So GA pilots with no aspiration to ever fly for a living should sacrifice so that commercial pilots can make a better living? :confused:
I don't know that I would call it a sacrifice but yes, pretty much. Someone's career is worth more than someone's hobby? Or is it not?
 
I don't think that increasing the cost of an already expensive system is the answer. On the contrary I believe the answer lies in creating more stringent minimum requirements for hire in part 121, and to obtain an ATP.

I would propose at least FAR part 135 IMC requirements for the right seat under part 121, and increase the requirements for an ATP to at least 2500 TT and 250 ME.

I would also suggest they make the ATP written more challenging (think JAA).

Increasing the barriers to entry would "weed out" some of the SJS crowd and those who skated through flight school hoping for a 5 year run to the majors because they wanted big bucks and lots of days off. Reduce the total number of new pilots in the system, and wages will improve.

That might work too. But compared to other countries we do not have an expensive system. We have a cheap system. Even when the dollar was doing well we still had people come over here for flight training.
 
Some how, some way, this needs to change. Although militant sounding, a total walk off should be organized and executed by ALPA. I would support that in any way possible and I am not even an airline pilot anymore.

Trip7 said:
Couple years ago Comair tried to match 1st and 2nd year pay during the hiring spree but the union denied it because they wanted increases for the other pilots as well. I'll try to find a link.


How important are the regionals to ALPA national anyway? Yes, I know they represent the pilot groups of many of them, but how much to they honestly care to deal with the problems of the regionals? I'd wager that ALPA is far more concerned with mainline wants and needs....look at whenver there's a disagreement between the wants/need of mainline vs a regional.....what's the standard argument? "Lets do it the mainline way, since that'll improve the situation for everybody." Does it really....how does that help a guy wanting to make a career at a regional? Is it another way or saying that regionals will never be anything more than a "mainline stepping stone"? Or is it another way of saying the old "give me mine, then I'll pull up the ladder..." ALPA, IMO, faces a conflict of interest in trying to represent both mainline and regionals when a conflict arises that's important to both, but with a differing opinion. Look at scope.

I'm not anti-ALPA, don't get me wrong; but I do not like much of the hypocrisy I see in the unions, ALPA being one of them....just like I wouldn't like the same thing with management; and I hold both accountable for their respective actions and responsibilities for the various conditions of various carriers. But since ALPA was brought up here, I throw out the question.
 
I don't think that increasing the cost of an already expensive system is the answer. On the contrary I believe the answer lies in creating more stringent minimum requirements for hire in part 121, and to obtain an ATP.

I would propose at least FAR part 135 IMC requirements for the right seat under part 121, and increase the requirements for an ATP to at least 2500 TT and 250 ME.

I would also suggest they make the ATP written more challenging (think JAA).

Increasing the barriers to entry would "weed out" some of the SJS crowd and those who skated through flight school hoping for a 5 year run to the majors because they wanted big bucks and lots of days off. Reduce the total number of new pilots in the system, and wages will improve.

Agreed.

The FAA also shouldn't allow someone to progress beyond, say three failed checkrides. I personally know guys who failed four or five rides only to be flying in the left seat now.
 
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