AOPAs Richard McSpadden accident, fatal

[arkflyr]

I think it was earlier in the 90s when it went away because I didn't do them when I started flying in 1998. Had to get the spin endorsement for my CFI a few years later but that was pretty much it.

They still make CFIs get the spin training and endorsement nowadays right? I haven't instructed since 2005 so I'm a bit stale when it comes to this stuff.

 

[///AMG]

I started PPL in sept/oct 2001, right after (the day after) the 9/11 TFRs/ground stop ended. I feel like I didn’t do spins as a civilian. Maybe it was a pre bin laden thing.

 

[knot4u]

I recall my instructor and I being psyched to go do spins. We'd literally take everything (other than ARROW) out of the mighty 150 and just go out over Malibu and just do it over and over. It's absolutely disconcerting the first couple of times.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I recall my instructor and I being psyched to go do spins. We'd literally take everything (other than ARROW) out of the mighty 150 and just go out over Malibu and just do it over and over. It's absolutely disconcerting the first couple of times.

Mine was in the mighty 152.

 

[trafficinsight]

I did mine in a 180 horse 172.

It was fun but I really don't have the stomach for it.

 

[DE727UPS]

Spin demos were never a PPL thing. It was a demo for CFI's in the 80's.

 

[trafficinsight]

Spin demos were never a PPL thing. It was a demo for CFI's in the 80's.

Still is.

 

[BobDDuck]

Spin demos were never a PPL thing. It was a demo for CFI's in the 80's.

I was only a few years off in my thought that it was the late 1990s. Turns out it was removed from the private pilot checkride in 1949.

Checkride

 

[DE727UPS]

And I shouldn't have said "never". I think spins were a solo thing even if you go back far enough to when planes were made out of wood and fabric.

 

[derg]

I did spin training as a CFI student back in the day.


Spins are one of those things that if you’ve never seen one, you’re pretty dead if you’re base-to-final.

 

[killbilly]

I think it was earlier in the 90s when it went away because I didn't do them when I started flying in 1998. Had to get the spin endorsement for my CFI a few years later but that was pretty much it.

They still make CFIs get the spin training and endorsement nowadays right? I haven't instructed since 2005 so I'm a bit stale when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, spin endorsement is still a requirement for the CFI.

I'd already had a smidgen of aerobatic experience when I did mine, and after we covered the requisite material, we still had some time left so the instructor gave me a couple lessons in the things you could do with a Super Decathlon. Damn that was fun.

 

[MikeD]

I did them during PPL, and I remember it being in the FBO school syllabus, but don’t know if that was a requirement or if the school wanted them done.

 

[knot4u]

Spin demos were never a PPL thing. It was a demo for CFI's in the 80's.

The school I went to liked me, they once asked me get up in front of a white board and draw pictures to explain how constant speed props and governors work to the ground school class I was attending. I didn't want to do it but sometimes getting out of your comfort zone is good. They were adamant about me getting my CFI, were they just trying to pump more money from a perceived easy mark? Maybe. Regardless of any opinions regarding their motivation I was treated differently and spins were always an option for me as a student. I learned to fly at KBUR, airspace, talking on the radio and spins were not anything to be afraid of. It was a different time.

 

[WacoFan]

I can't imagine a world where I was allowed to get my ticket without spin training, we did it enough that it was not disconcerting, it was as common as a turn around a point. My instructor not only drilled into my head how to avoid a spin he also forced me to become comfortable with them so I wouldn't be surprised. Although I was "prepared" to take advantage of a sucker hole I doubt I would've done it. Whoever did that was very brave.

It was just part of the syllabus for me as mandated by my grandpa. Stalls and spins were after ground reference maneuvers and prior to working in the pattern. I think it was 4th or 5th hour.

 

[WacoFan]

You weren’t wrong, there are a number of aircraft have a desire to work themselves out of an actual spin, and seek to do so barring any pilot input that keeps them from doing so. I remember doing spin rides in the North American T-2C Buckeye and Cessna T-37B Tweet. Those two jets will doing nothing to help you, and nothing to hurt you, as the pilot. But they fully expect you and you alone, to recover from whatever degree of upset you placed them into.

If I recall the history of the Piper Traumahawk (the maligned Tomahawk - a really nice airplane actually) - they polled instructors in the early/mid 70's about what they'd like to see in a trainer. An overwhelming number said they wanted something that was not so incredibly easy/stable and had some more "grown up" characteristics. Hence the Tomahawk which would actually spin quite readily - and nicely. Also did a nice snap roll. I did not say I was smart. Or sensible. I was young. A teen. Anyway, they produced the Tomahawk which was actually everything they asked for, only to have the airplane maligned because...it would do everything they asked for. I also liked them - much more comfortable than a 150 - my only complaint was the greenhouse in the Texas summers - that wasn't always pleasant. My grandpa used to bitch about trainers being too easy and not great prep for what you'd fly later. His beef against the J-3 in favor of the Aeronca Champ was that the Champ actually flew like a somewhat real airplane and the J-3 pretty much flew like a J-3. All of these issues were fixed with a clipped wing J-3 which he found a great airplane.

For the CFI's out there - thoughts on that topic? Are the modern trainers too easy to fly? Going way back it seems problems with "airmanship" creep up now and again - could this be fixed by more challenging handling trainers - that you actually have to feel and fly?

 

[MikeD]

If I recall the history of the Piper Traumahawk (the maligned Tomahawk - a really nice airplane actually) - they polled instructors in the early/mid 70's about what they'd like to see in a trainer. An overwhelming number said they wanted something that was not so incredibly easy/stable and had some more "grown up" characteristics. Hence the Tomahawk which would actually spin quite readily - and nicely. Also did a nice snap roll. I did not say I was smart. Or sensible. I was young. A teen. Anyway, they produced the Tomahawk which was actually everything they asked for, only to have the airplane maligned because...it would do everything they asked for. I also liked them - much more comfortable than a 150 - my only complaint was the greenhouse in the Texas summers - that wasn't always pleasant. My grandpa used to bitch about trainers being too easy and not great prep for what you'd fly later. His beef against the J-3 in favor of the Aeronca Champ was that the Champ actually flew like a somewhat real airplane and the J-3 pretty much flew like a J-3. All of these issues were fixed with a clipped wing J-3 which he found a great airplane.

For the CFI's out there - thoughts on that topic? Are the modern trainers too easy to fly? Going way back it seems problems with "airmanship" creep up now and again - could this be fixed by more challenging handling trainers - that you actually have to feel and fly?

I wonder how the Tomahawk compared to the Beech Skipper.

 

[WacoFan]

I started PPL in sept/oct 2001, right after (the day after) the 9/11 TFRs/ground stop ended. I feel like I didn’t do spins as a civilian. Maybe it was a pre bin laden thing.

Spins were out for PPL in the 80's. Not sure when but they weren't legally required for PPL anytime in my flying lifetime.

 

[WacoFan]

I wonder how the Tomahawk compared to the Beech Skipper.

I always wondered and I never got to fly a Skipper. I always just assumed it was a fancier, dressed up and more precise feeling version of the Tomahawk with nicer interior materials and a higher-class of perfume mixed with student BO but I never found out.

 

[BobDDuck]

Spins were out for PPL in the 80's. Not sure when but they weren't legally required for PPL anytime in my flying lifetime.

1949. See my post above for the the AOPA article about it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Spins are one of those things that if you’ve never seen one, you’re pretty dead if you’re base-to-final.

Like a lot of things, it’ll generate rates and attitudes that, if you haven’t seen before, may well startle you right into the ground. The first one I did during my aerobatics course was a “whoa” sort of moment; there’s no room for “whoa” base to final and the statistics sort of bear that out. And yeah, stall and spin avoidance are good things to train too, blah blah, but—there’s a lot of really good, pure seat of the pants stuff that comes from doing these things deliberately, under the right supervision and in the right equipment too.

I consider the spin/aerobatics course to be the best flight training I’ve ever received—and at this point, I’ve gone through a lot of flight training. I’d put a spin demonstration back into the private ACS, if I were in charge.

Edit: my primary complaint about EET at the airlines lies around the facts that 1) a hexapod flight simulator base cannot accurately generate g in a sustained manner and 2) the first time you are upside down should NOT be an accident.