Another Cape Air question

[milleR]

There's no way it costs them 30k to train someone in the right seat of a 402.
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Here's the relevant excerpt from my in house training for a Metroliner PIC type. That was a fair contract.

They aren't charging 30K to train somebody to fly right seat in a 402. I guess my post that you quoted wasn't clear.

They are obligating 30K to keep a new captain on board for a year while they train somebody to replace them.

Don't like it? Fine. Don't work there. But it makes financial sense if you're running a piston twin operation in a world of jets that is hurting for pilots.

And, again, since apparently nobody reads anything on here from start to finish, I have no idea if 30K is a justifiable number much less how they generated it beyond the theory it's large enough to scare people into not leaving.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

I have no idea if 30K is a justifiable number much less how they generated it beyond the theory it's large enough to scare people into not leaving.

That's the issue I have. It should be justifiable, and not just a number big enough to scare people. I didn't pay for my Metro type, but $8100 was what I agreed to pay if I left the job. That was fair. 30k isn't.

 

[milleR]

That's the issue I have. It should be justifiable, and not just a number big enough to scare people. I didn't pay for my Metro type, but $8100 was what I agreed to pay if I left the job. That was fair. 30k isn't.

It smacks of desperation, no doubt about it. I don't like the number and am frankly more than a little embarrassed that my alma matter has decided that's what they have to do.

But I would also add, a metro type-rating with the TPIC that follows it carries more value than just an ATP in a 402, so the opportunity cost of losing that pilot (and I don't remember the ATP rules in 2013 or what the associated additional training costs would be) would be lower since you've probably got people lined up to fill the position.

 

[Inverted]

Just a couple thoughts:

• FO's are required under certain circumstances (autopilot inop, high mins captain filing IFR, probably some more 135 stuff I've forgotten)
• 30K isn't out of pocket, it's a commitment to not leave. I sincerely doubt anybody applying for an FO position at 9K has 30 grand lying around to dump on a type rating. Not saying your point is invalid, it's just not really applicable to this situation. I won't touch the "time in type" argument since it leads down the "paying for a type rating to get a job" rabbit hole and that's not a discussion worth getting into.
• FO's are captains in training. Get the low time guys in the door, hook them for a year after upgrade and you theoretically have a pipeline of replacement captains instead of relying on attracting ATP qualified pilots in a rapidly contracting hiring market.

I have no idea what it costs to get an ATP these days, but if I was in management at Cape I would most certainly be protecting my investment financially. Whether that justifies 30K or not I don't know. That number may be ludicrous. But training contracts in this day and age make a lot of sense to me, whether folks like them or not.

I know 30k isn't out of pocket, my point is that they are placing value on something that literally holds zero value other than hours gained. 30,000 dollars for a few hundred hours and an ATP? If FOs are captains in training, then treat them better than "they are required sometimes but not others, so they aren't really required, but when we put an FO on, they are a crew member" BS. It is a stones throw from PFT. Pay FOs crap, don't pay for their lodging or salary during training, make them sign a ridiculous contract for several years of employment. If they were truly required, then paying for them to be there would be the cost of doing business.

It is one thing to get an agreement that you will give them a year as a captain, once you upgrade after being an FO, but when the culture of Cape Air is to treat FOs like crap, treat them like a burden, treat them like they aren't needed, all the while holding them to a 30,000 dollar training contract is pretty sad. A captain pipeline only works if you treat them with respect. Why stay at a company that doesn't respect you flying a piston twin when you can bail, get an ATP, go fly a jet an actual required crewmember flying as a 121 FO? I am missing the incentive.

 

[milleR]

I know 30k isn't out of pocket, my point is that they are placing value on something that literally holds zero value other than hours gained. 30,000 dollars for a few hundred hours and an ATP? If FOs are captains in training, then treat them better than "they are required sometimes but not others, so they aren't really required, but when we put an FO on, they are a crew member" BS. It is a stones throw from PFT. Pay FOs crap, don't pay for their lodging or salary during training, make them sign a ridiculous contract for several years of employment. If they were truly required, then paying for them to be there would be the cost of doing business.

It is one thing to get an agreement that you will give them a year as a captain, once you upgrade after being an FO, but when the culture of Cape Air is to treat FOs like crap, treat them like a burden, treat them like they aren't needed, all the while holding them to a 30,000 dollar training contract is pretty sad. A captain pipeline only works if you treat them with respect. Why stay at a company that doesn't respect you flying a piston twin when you can bail, get an ATP, go fly a jet an actual required crewmember flying as a 121 FO? I am missing the incentive.

Maybe somebody who actually works there can clarify this.

My understanding from the earlier posts is that the training contract only went into effect after upgrade.

Is this correct?

Edit: @raph12 are you a current 9K pilot that can help clarify this?

 

[gotWXdagain]

I know 30k isn't out of pocket, my point is that they are placing value on something that literally holds zero value other than hours gained. 30,000 dollars for a few hundred hours and an ATP? If FOs are captains in training, then treat them better than "they are required sometimes but not others, so they aren't really required, but when we put an FO on, they are a crew member" BS. It is a stones throw from PFT. Pay FOs crap, don't pay for their lodging or salary during training, make them sign a ridiculous contract for several years of employment. If they were truly required, then paying for them to be there would be the cost of doing business.

It is one thing to get an agreement that you will give them a year as a captain, once you upgrade after being an FO, but when the culture of Cape Air is to treat FOs like crap, treat them like a burden, treat them like they aren't needed, all the while holding them to a 30,000 dollar training contract is pretty sad. A captain pipeline only works if you treat them with respect. Why stay at a company that doesn't respect you flying a piston twin when you can bail, get an ATP, go fly a jet an actual required crewmember flying as a 121 FO? I am missing the incentive.

You know, you might actually have it right with the Pay for Time setup. $30k is about the hourly rate of a 402 times hours a pilot is expected to fly in a year at Cape, yea?

Sort of a "Work for us, or pay to get to 1500" scheme.

 

[Inverted]

Not when you factor that the time you are getting is SIC on a passenger revenue operation. What's a 402 an hour to operate? 300 bucks?

And the contract is signed as an FO, that specifically states that you have to give a year as a captain. So if it takes you two years to upgrade, you have a 3 year contract. I think it's 1 year as a CA, maybe its two. Either way they lock you into a contract that you are potentially years away from even beginning to chip away at.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Not when you factor that the time you are getting is SIC on a passenger revenue operation. What's a 402 an hour to operate? 300 bucks?

And the contract is signed as an FO, that specifically states that you have to give a year as a captain. So if it takes you two years to upgrade, you have a 3 year contract. I think it's 1 year as a CA, maybe its two. Either way they lock you into a contract that you are potentially years away from even beginning to chip away at.

Which therefore makes the contract unconscionable.

 

[milleR]

Not when you factor that the time you are getting is SIC on a passenger revenue operation. What's a 402 an hour to operate? 300 bucks?

Ok, I hate picking nits but, no, not even close. Probably double?

And the contract is signed as an FO, that specifically states that you have to give a year as a captain. So if it takes you two years to upgrade, you have a 3 year contract. I think it's 1 year as a CA, maybe its two. Either way they lock you into a contract that you are potentially years away from even beginning to chip away at.

Please cite your source since apparently we've got a lot of conflicting info flying around here.

 

[Groundpounder]

I know 30k isn't out of pocket, my point is that they are placing value on something that literally holds zero value other than hours gained. 30,000 dollars for a few hundred hours and an ATP? If FOs are captains in training, then treat them better than "they are required sometimes but not others, so they aren't really required, but when we put an FO on, they are a crew member" BS. It is a stones throw from PFT. Pay FOs crap, don't pay for their lodging or salary during training, make them sign a ridiculous contract for several years of employment. If they were truly required, then paying for them to be there would be the cost of doing business.

It is one thing to get an agreement that you will give them a year as a captain, once you upgrade after being an FO, but when the culture of Cape Air is to treat FOs like crap, treat them like a burden, treat them like they aren't needed, all the while holding them to a 30,000 dollar training contract is pretty sad. A captain pipeline only works if you treat them with respect. Why stay at a company that doesn't respect you flying a piston twin when you can bail, get an ATP, go fly a jet an actual required crewmember flying as a 121 FO? I am missing the incentive.

Boy you sure like to get worked up about stuff that isn't even close to affecting you! Where do you see anything about F/O's being treated like crap, or not being respected?

When someone has 700-ish hours, what are their options for getting to 1500 hours? Giving Cape a year of your life after they PAY YOU to get to 1500 hours, and pay for your ATP, while you're getting multi PIC, and they continue to pay you sure doesn't sound like a burden, and you'll get better experience than playing CFI for the same amount of hours. Plus, Cape Air pilots are pretty highly respected, at least around these parts. A big chunk of the new hires when Wheels Up first went into operation were Cape Air pilots. I will agree that $30k is a little high, but it is what it is. Don't like it? Don't apply.

 

[Apophis]

Boy you sure like to get worked up about stuff that isn't even close to affecting you! Where do you see anything about F/O's being treated like crap, or not being respected?

When someone has 700-ish hours, what are their options for getting to 1500 hours? Giving Cape a year of your life after they PAY YOU to get to 1500 hours, and pay for your ATP, while you're getting multi PIC, and they continue to pay you sure doesn't sound like a burden, and you'll get better experience than playing CFI for the same amount of hours. Plus, Cape Air pilots are pretty highly respected, at least around these parts. A big chunk of the new hires when Wheels Up first went into operation were Cape Air pilots. I will agree that $30k is a little high, but it is what it is. Don't like it? Don't apply.

There are plenty of options for low time pilots that don't involve signing their life away to an incredibly unfair training agreement. And why would you say that sitting right seat in a Cessna 402 is better experience than being a CFI? You sound like a Cape Air cheerleader.

My point being that any outfit requiring you to sign a training contract (especially one as utterly ridiculous as this) isn't worth your time.
e.

 

[Groundpounder]

There are plenty of options for low time pilots that don't involve signing their life away to an incredibly unfair training agreement. And why would you say that sitting right seat in a Cessna 402 is better experience than being a CFI? You sound like a Cape Air cheerleader.

My point being that any outfit requiring you to sign a training contract (especially one as utterly ridiculous as this) isn't worth your time.
e.

Cause you're out there flying the system in all kind of weather while interacting with the passengers very closely. And then doing a year of that in the left seat.

The only people I've ever heard speak poorly of Cape are people that haven't worked there. I've never heard anyone that has actually worked there say anything bad about the company.

But whatever, go do touch and goes for 8 hours a day in Florida, that's much better experience......

 

[CD427]

On many of the EAS(essential air service )routes the f/o seat is blocked so you don't get bumped. Montana,Midwest and many New England cities are EAS.
Other times that you could get bumped are dictated by the automated w&b, no auto pilot,or high min Capt.
You'll still fly 65-90hrs / mo if you want.

Thanks for that update, that's good to know for when I'm picking my base. I want to obviously not get bumped off the flight as often as possible and then when I'm Captain, I think I'm going to want my FO with me as often as possible.

 

[CD427]

There are plenty of options for low time pilots that don't involve signing their life away to an incredibly unfair training agreement. And why would you say that sitting right seat in a Cessna 402 is better experience than being a CFI? You sound like a Cape Air cheerleader.

My point being that any outfit requiring you to sign a training contract (especially one as utterly ridiculous as this) isn't worth your time.
e.

Unfortunately, I've got to disagree with this one, there are not "plenty" of options for low time pilots out there. Mapping maybe, but no ones hiring in my area for mapping. The thought of instructing for the next 1000 hours makes me want to run. Last night I left the airport at 9pm after doing 13 landings with the same student who still couldn't get how to flare after the 13th landing, and that was after working an 8 hr day at my full time job. Personally, I'm thankful for opportunities like Cape Air.

 

[tlove482]

I know 30k isn't out of pocket, my point is that they are placing value on something that literally holds zero value other than hours gained. 30,000 dollars for a few hundred hours and an ATP? If FOs are captains in training, then treat them better than "they are required sometimes but not others, so they aren't really required, but when we put an FO on, they are a crew member" BS. It is a stones throw from PFT. Pay FOs crap, don't pay for their lodging or salary during training, make them sign a ridiculous contract for several years of employment. If they were truly required, then paying for them to be there would be the cost of doing business.

It is one thing to get an agreement that you will give them a year as a captain, once you upgrade after being an FO, but when the culture of Cape Air is to treat FOs like crap, treat them like a burden, treat them like they aren't needed, all the while holding them to a 30,000 dollar training contract is pretty sad. A captain pipeline only works if you treat them with respect. Why stay at a company that doesn't respect you flying a piston twin when you can bail, get an ATP, go fly a jet an actual required crewmember flying as a 121 FO? I am missing the incentive.

Unless things have changed, lodging is paid for and you get 35 hours of pay a week during training. The only thing the F/Os were unhappy about when I was there was pay.

 

[Apophis]

Unfortunately, I've got to disagree with this one, there are not "plenty" of options for low time pilots out there. Mapping maybe, but no ones hiring in my area for mapping. The thought of instructing for the next 1000 hours makes me want to run. Last night I left the airport at 9pm after doing 13 landings with the same student who still couldn't get how to flare after the 13th landing, and that was after working an 8 hr day at my full time job. Personally, I'm thankful for opportunities like Cape Air.

If potentially making a $30,000 dollar mistake is worth it to you, then don't let me or anybody else hold you back. Having had experience with companies that require training contracts (and luckily never having to deal with the consequences), I'll run as fast as I can in the opposite direction anytime I see a company that requires one.

 

[Inverted]

Boy you sure like to get worked up about stuff that isn't even close to affecting you! Where do you see anything about F/O's being treated like crap, or not being respected?

I have friends that have low time, and are working there now, that's why! Cape used to be an awesome place to go and gain experience. It is sad to hear accounts of people being poorly and having a contract to top it off, that's all.

 

[Inverted]

Ok, I hate picking nits but, no, not even close. Probably double?



Please cite your source since apparently we've got a lot of conflicting info flying around here.

This is right off APC:

Requiring a $30,000 training contract for first officers to retain for 1 year after upgrading to captain

I have no idea what it costs to operate a 402 thats why I threw a number out.

 

[CD427]

I have friends that have low time, and are working there now, that's why! Cape used to be an awesome place to go and gain experience. It is sad to hear accounts of people being poorly and having a contract to top it off, that's all.

Inverted, this is a serious question, I'm not trying to make any points or anything. Are your friends that are unhappy with Cape at different bases or are they at the same base? I'm trying to understand if there's a base where conditions are worse than others. Also, can you give me an example of the bad working conditions? Is it climate?, long hours?, having to work days off?, pressure to fly in unsafe conditions?. How bad are we talking?

 

[drupilot54]

Since everyone has different ways of looking at the information being provided, it is not fair to just say that this company is not worth looking at because of the training contract. I would just like to reach out to anyone on here thinking about applying at Cape Air, have any comments about the training contract or even just general questions to message me directly. I will gladly answer all your questions.

I am a current FO here and i believe what they did with the training contract with the FO class a few months ago was unfair. But you also have to understand this company has lost a lot of FOs and that is because there were trusting that they would not leave prior to their commitment that Cape Air had asked them since their interview. Showing that on PRIA was not enough.

Also for people saying this company doesn't require FOs are wrong. They definitely need us, otherwise they wouldn't be blocking out seats for us. Pay is not the greatest but the experience and the amount of things learnt are invaluable to get us to the captain ranks. I have been bumped 2 times out of my base. BOTH times, i was given a hotel that was paid for by them and was given $37/day. The chief pilot even called me and asked me if he could help me make up the flight time. That shows me that they care.