Another Cape Air question

[CD427]

I am currently an FO at Cape Air and i can assure anyone thinking of coming here that it is a great place to work and get experience. Right now there are some changes happening in the company and it is effecting a lot of people and many have strong opinions about it. But you also have to understand, as an outsider looking in, it is easy to judge.

Also, the IMPORTANT thing to know is they are blocking out seats for FO.

Hi Drupilot54,
I was hoping you would weigh in since you posted that you recently were hired there in a different post. So when you say they're blocking out seats for the FO are you saying they're not selling the FOs seat so they won't get bumped? That's great news! Is it specific bases besides Puerto Rico?
Did you have to sign the 30k contract? Did you get enough time to really read it ( have it looked over by your lawyer) before you signed?
Did you get one of the three bases you bid on?

 

[drupilot54]

That is correct. They are selling only 8 tickets instead of 9 so that the FO goes. Also, the FOs now cannot be bumped unless its a very special and rare reason, which i have yet to see. There are many bases that FOs can get. The only centralized base is in Billings, MT.

I did not have to sign the $30k contract, however i know that is a huge problem with most folks. But in my opinion, if an airline is giving you an opportunity to build flight time and experience and then want you to stay just ONE year as a captain, then in my opinion it is not too much to ask for.

When i got out of training, they asked me what region i wanted to be in and i said the North East. So then they gave me options of the open bases and i chose the one i liked with the most flight time. The FO bid is going to coming out in the summer so if people want to move then you bid and it is all seniority number based.

 

[drupilot54]

For everyone talking about the $30k contract and how awful it is, please think about it this way. There were FOs who started at this company with 500 hours and got all the way up to and sometimes exceeding 1500 hours while fulfilling everything required to have an ATP. that hey got at Cape Air Then when Cape air called them for Captain upgrade they said "No, thank you" and left for other regional. There was a week where about 5 FOs left that could have been captains which really hurt them badly coming into their busy season of summer.

Although the $30k contract is absurd, it is only unreasonable if you are planning on leaving prior to your commitment. FOs are the future captains but if a verbal commitment is not enough (which was what was there when i started in December of 2015), they started making training contracts. Everyone is aware of this now going in, so if you are going to be signing up to be a FO for Cape Air make sure you know everything you want to know before you sign. Ask me any questions and i am sure i can find the answers.

 

[raph12]

When I interviewed with them about a year ago, they didn't mention anything about $30k contract, but they did expect a 1 year commitment if you got your ATP and upgraded to PIC. The way they had worded it, and the way you are explaining the current situation, makes it sound like you're free to leave before you upgrade. It sounds like you and the recruiter were talking past each other, since you're obligated when you sign the contract, but you wouldn't have to pay up if you don't upgrade.
@raph12 care to comment?

The "gentleman's agreement" no longer exists because way too many FOs quit as soon as they hit 1500 hours. Now, there is a firm $30,000 contract for one year after the Captain upgrade check ride for all new hire FOs. This was implemented without prior notice to new hires that started in April. It's unfortunate that the company had to resort to this, mainly because these new hires had nothing to do with those who left before fulfilling their commitments.

 

[CD427]

For everyone talking about the $30k contract and how awful it is, please think about it this way. There were FOs who started at this company with 500 hours and got all the way up to and sometimes exceeding 1500 hours while fulfilling everything required to have an ATP. that hey got at Cape Air Then when Cape air called them for Captain upgrade they said "No, thank you" and left for other regional. There was a week where about 5 FOs left that could have been captains which really hurt them badly coming into their busy season of summer.

Although the $30k contract is absurd, it is only unreasonable if you are planning on leaving prior to your commitment. FOs are the future captains but if a verbal commitment is not enough (which was what was there when i started in December of 2015), they started making training contracts. Everyone is aware of this now going in, so if you are going to be signing up to be a FO for Cape Air make sure you know everything you want to know before you sign. Ask me any questions and i am sure i can find the answers.

My interview is next week, in anticipation of getting hired, Levi told me I won't start training until the Fall. Will Cape give me books and manuals to study up on the aircraft over the summer or should I look for stuff online to study? Or am I being overzealous about learning the plane before going to training?

 

[Inverted]

The "gentleman's agreement" no longer exists because way too many FOs quit as soon as they hit 1500 hours. Now, there is a firm $30,000 contract for one year after the Captain upgrade check ride for all new hire FOs. This was implemented without prior notice to new hires that started in April. It's unfortunate that the company had to resort to this, mainly because these new hires had nothing to do with those who left before fulfilling their commitments.

Then maybe they should do away with the FO program all together. This weird "we sorta need FOs but they aren't required sorta but we hire them to be an FO sorta" BS is nonsense. Of course FOs are leaving once they hit 1500 hours, why the hell wouldn't they? If an FO isn't required, stop hiring them, pay captains more, nuff said. If they aren't bumping FOs off flights, sounds like they want them in the cockpit. 30,000 dollars will get you a modern jet type rating, and there is nothing you can do with the training at Cape Air by going somewhere else.

 

[averettpilot]

I'm a little confused now. Do new hire FOs have to sign a contract or just after Capt. upgrade? Is this a time building program and you're expected to upgrade and then stay on for another year?

 

[Inverted]

I'm a little confused now. Do new hire FOs have to sign a contract or just after Capt. upgrade? Is this a time building program and you're expected to upgrade and then stay on for another year?

No, you sign a contract as an FO, but does not start ticking down until you are a CA.

 

[averettpilot]

Ahhhhh. Screw that! You guys better protect yourself before you sign something like that. It's not always about whether you plan on leaving before your obligation is met, but rather if you're still on the hook if some unforeseen life event prevents you from completing it. Training contracts are almost always a sign of something bad. Protect yourself people.

 

[gotWXdagain]

$30k is bat shilelagh stupid.

 

[milleR]

Then maybe they should do away with the FO program all together. This weird "we sorta need FOs but they aren't required sorta but we hire them to be an FO sorta" BS is nonsense. Of course FOs are leaving once they hit 1500 hours, why the hell wouldn't they? If an FO isn't required, stop hiring them, pay captains more, nuff said. If they aren't bumping FOs off flights, sounds like they want them in the cockpit. 30,000 dollars will get you a modern jet type rating, and there is nothing you can do with the training at Cape Air by going somewhere else.

Just a couple thoughts:

• FO's are required under certain circumstances (autopilot inop, high mins captain filing IFR, probably some more 135 stuff I've forgotten)
• 30K isn't out of pocket, it's a commitment to not leave. I sincerely doubt anybody applying for an FO position at 9K has 30 grand lying around to dump on a type rating. Not saying your point is invalid, it's just not really applicable to this situation. I won't touch the "time in type" argument since it leads down the "paying for a type rating to get a job" rabbit hole and that's not a discussion worth getting into.
• FO's are captains in training. Get the low time guys in the door, hook them for a year after upgrade and you theoretically have a pipeline of replacement captains instead of relying on attracting ATP qualified pilots in a rapidly contracting hiring market.

I have no idea what it costs to get an ATP these days, but if I was in management at Cape I would most certainly be protecting my investment financially. Whether that justifies 30K or not I don't know. That number may be ludicrous. But training contracts in this day and age make a lot of sense to me, whether folks like them or not.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Just a couple thoughts:

• FO's are required under certain circumstances (autopilot inop, high mins captain filing IFR, probably some more 135 stuff I've forgotten)
• 30K isn't out of pocket, it's a commitment to not leave. I sincerely doubt anybody applying for an FO position at 9K has 30 grand lying around to dump on a type rating. Not saying your point is invalid, it's just not really applicable to this situation. I won't touch the "time in type" argument since it leads down the "paying for a type rating to get a job" rabbit hole and that's not a discussion worth getting into.
• FO's are captains in training. Get the low time guys in the door, hook them for a year after upgrade and you theoretically have a pipeline of replacement captains instead of relying on attracting ATP qualified pilots in a rapidly contracting hiring market.

I have no idea what it costs to get an ATP these days, but if I was in management at Cape I would most certainly be protecting my investment financially. Whether that justifies 30K or not I don't know. That number may be ludicrous. But training contracts in this day and age make a lot of sense to me, whether folks like them or not.

There's no way it costs them 30k to train someone in the right seat of a 402.

Here's the relevant excerpt from my in house training for a Metroliner PIC type. That was a fair contract.

 

[Stinger]

i want to fly with KAP444

Why's that?

 

[tlove482]

There's no way it costs them 30k to train someone in the right seat of a 402.
View attachment 35072

Here's the relevant excerpt from my in house training for a Metroliner PIC type. That was a fair contract.

It does if you count all of their flight time in the 402 as training.

 

[gotWXdagain]

$30,000.00 is enough to train three people to replace you. It's also a down payment on a nice house. I bet they even charge interest on the contract if you bail early.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

It does if you count all of their flight time in the 402 as training.

How is it training when you are a required crewmember? That is asinine. Obviously, there should be an IOE period, but after about 2 flights, you should be able to perform the duties of an SIC in a 402. Are you serious or just trolling?

 

[tlove482]

How is it training when you are a required crewmember? That is asinine. Obviously, there should be an IOE period, but after about 2 flights, you should be able to perform the duties of an SIC in a 402. Are you serious or just trolling?

Because most of the time, they aren't required. They are just captains in training. That's probably the biggest reason for the f/o position at Cape Air.

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[CoffeeIcePapers]

Because most of the time, they aren't required. They are just captains in training. That's probably the biggest reason for the f/o position at Cape Air.

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So why not get rid of the FO position? Hey, we need you, but you're going to pay us 30k if you try to leave. Do you not see how one sided that is?

 

[tlove482]

So why not get rid of the FO position? Hey, we need you, but you're going to pay us 30k if you try to leave. Do you not see how one sided that is?

I think I agreed with that point on another thread. It might make it easier to have more lifers if they dropped the fo's and raised captain pay. Only time will tell if it's as one sided as you say. I suspect it will still be worth it to a few people who want to build time and not go 121.

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[Dart106]

How does Cape Air determine if they will allow a passenger to sit in the front seat with the Captain? In what scenario do they decide that the FO is not necessary? Just curious. I want to become a Cape Air FO to kick off my time building (post flight instructing) and I'm wondering under what circumstances would I be booted from my right seat for a passenger to sit up there.

On many of the EAS(essential air service )routes the f/o seat is blocked so you don't get bumped. Montana,Midwest and many New England cities are EAS.
Other times that you could get bumped are dictated by the automated w&b, no auto pilot,or high min Capt.
You'll still fly 65-90hrs / mo if you want.